New Black Velvet Angel

[snorvich]

My view is that fish, depending on various stressors and levels of immunity (which can be lowered when stressors occur) may become less resistant to ich. That being said, I have always been able to "feed fish out of ich" using high protein, multiple feedings. I think that over time a tank will no longer contain ich as long as stability is maintained and the fish remain resistant. But many (maybe even most) people feed improperly and under those circumstances, coupled with the addition of new fish or other animals, ich can reoccur and evidence itself on fish that are less resistant or no longer resistant. I have read that resistance tends to diminish after 6 months but that is anecdotal.

 

[snorvich]

So why would I see ich pop up on my powder blue every few months with no new additions?

Ok, if you are open to speculation . . . I think that some fish always have ich but do not evidence the symptoms (powder blues being what are often described as ich magnets) but the trophonts drop off prematurely when the fish is not stressed and hence resistant.

 

[roktsintst]

Interesting...

Man, I just cant figure out what to do. I definitly prescribe to the feed very well and often regime to help keep my fish healthy and I think for the most part it really helps. I only have seen a spot or two here and there but it worries me still.

I just dont know if terring my reef apart and setting up another tank to try to kill something that is "always there" is the right thing to do. I definitly know that me trapping and hunting the fish is the biggest stressor in my tank for sure!

But I dont want to have Big $$$ in fish die to something preventable!

So, who knows if velvet falls off like ich does? I really think its ich but im not so sure how to tell....

 

[ezhoops]

Interesting...

Man, I just cant figure out what to do. I definitly prescribe to the feed very well and often regime to help keep my fish healthy and I think for the most part it really helps. I only have seen a spot or two here and there but it worries me still.

I just dont know if terring my reef apart and setting up another tank to try to kill something that is "always there" is the right thing to do. I definitly know that me trapping and hunting the fish is the biggest stressor in my tank for sure!

But I dont want to have Big $$$ in fish die to something preventable!

Yes, I completely agree and this is what I did. The reason I did this is because I had a hippo tang and it didn't show signs of ich in qt (I was not treating for anything) After about a week I put him in the DT and a few days later he showed ich. I've had experience with just over feeding and water changes and never lost a fish. In fact this hippo lived with ICH and many cycles of it without a blink. Of course we sometimes are fooled to think this is ok, IMO something will cause your best efforts to cease and thus the fish will ultimately suffer. My work schedule slightly changed and so I couldn't feed as much I was and once I got around to treating the stress of capture and treatment was too much for him.

I've included a bad picture but the white spots on him are ich and if you saw this fish in person you would be amazed that he was able to live with this. He had some many spots it was crazy.

 

[snorvich]

So, who knows if velvet falls off like ich does? I really think its ich but im not so sure how to tell....

Ich looks like discrete particles like salt. If you have oodinium (velvet) your treatment protocol will be quite a bit different. Velvet is almost always fatal, ich can be fought off.

 

[roktsintst]

So how do you tell the difference?

How long does velvet take to be fatal? After they show signs...

 

[NexDog]

It's super quick.

And I QT all new arrivals with medicines even if I don't see an infection. As we all know Ich and Velvet can be there but in an invisible stage (dinospores). I used to hypo all fish but now I use copper as copper kills Ich and Velvet. And I Prazi. Although I've had Prazi kill fish due to knocking off so many flukes they bled to death.

If a fish is healthy and eating, I see no reason why not to treat for a disease it might be carrying. Sure, you get more losses than you would if you didn't treat but knowing that my tank has 25 fish with no disease is worth it to me. I'd be more wary about treating a $2,000 fish though. But I don't spend more than $200 on a fish and I'm happy with that. The only fish I've ever lost in my DT is from jumpers (fixed that with covers) and aggression (unavoidable in most cases when it happens).

So there are two schools of thought, neither is correct, they are just different methods. Do what works for you (but don't cry if your latest addition that was super healthy by himself in his 50g QT all to himself and then goes into the DT, gets major aggro, and suddenly goes speckledy white and kills half your fish in revenge. ).

 

[snorvich]

Actually hypo definitely will not kill oodinium and copper may not kill velvet (oodinium). While I always use prazipro, I never treat anything else until I know I have it. This is gone full circle. Do what you think is best.

 

[NexDog]

Yes, I stopped the hypo method as it doesn't do anything to Velvet, however Copper is usually the prescribed treatment. I like the 3 week treatment time versus the 6 week hypo too.

 

[snorvich]

however Copper is usually the prescribed treatment.

Actually, I disagree. You might peruse: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

 

[NexDog]

Treatment Option 2: Copper

Copper is widely available, inexpensive, and has been proven effective. These attributes have made it the most commonly used chemical treatment for this parasite in the United States (Noga, 2000, Trevor-Jones, 2004, and Univ. of Florida). But, for all its positives, copper can be problematic. It has a narrow range of effectiveness; too high and it can be lethal to the fish, too low and it is useless. It requires daily, or in some instances twice daily, testing and adjustment of the concentration to maintain the appropriate amount, making it a labor-intensive prospect. Still, though, it is cheap, it works, and it can be found in just about any fish store, so it is likely to be the treatment of choice for some time.

They only say it's problematic due to all the widely known issues with copper. Doesn't stop it being the go-to treatment for Ich (and Velvet).

 

[Dejavu]

So true. Too many people go out, buy fish and QT like "its the cool thing to do" and kill too many fish while in QT. I've never understood this. Purchase, feed, observe, medicate, if needed, and then acclimate to tank mates.

:beer:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. QTing fish is not for everyone and there is a learning curve that goes with QTing fish. But to said that "its the cool thing to do" and kill too many fish while in QT, is just wrong.

I have never lost a fish in QT and i don't do it because it's "cool". In fact it's a PITA. Here is why I do it; many fish that are coming in have fluke, I have had two fish that I know for a fact that came in with them. This does not include internal worms.

Second, I don't know anyone who doesn't buy fish that are not healthy. Just because they look healthy and are eating well doesn't mean they are without parasite. Many fish carry parasites in there gill. While the fish will look healthy and may never show signs of sickness, once in the display they can spread it to others. Wrasses are one that tread to have this often. There slim coat "shed" ick form their body but not their gills. I have learn this the hard way.

Third, I have too much money and time invested in my livestock. I'm not a gambling man and don't plan to start.

I know that this is a very debated topic and everyone has their opinions on what right, everyone has the right to do what they feel is best. I just want to explain the other side .

 

[tcmfish]

sorry, but i have to disagree with this. Qting fish is not for everyone and there is a learning curve that goes with qting fish. But to said that "its the cool thing to do" and kill too many fish while in qt, is just wrong.

I have never lost a fish in qt and i don't do it because it's "cool". In fact it's a pita. Here is why i do it; many fish that are coming in have fluke, i have had two fish that i know for a fact that came in with them. This does not include internal worms.

Second, i don't know anyone who doesn't buy fish that are not healthy. Just because they look healthy and are eating well doesn't mean they are without parasite. Many fish carry parasites in there gill. While the fish will look healthy and may never show signs of sickness, once in the display they can spread it to others. Wrasses are one that tread to have this often. There slim coat "shed" ick form their body but not their gills. I have learn this the hard way.

Third, i have too much money and time invested in my livestock. I'm not a gambling man and don't plan to start.

I know that this is a very debated topic and everyone has their opinions on what right, everyone has the right to do what they feel is best. I just want to explain the other side .

+1

 

[snorvich]

I don't think anyone is saying not to quarantine. I simply disagree with the methods involved. I am in the school of methodology of mpoletti.

 

[roktsintst]

Steve do you think ich is always present?

 

[ezhoops]

Ok, I really do value the discussion here but it seems to me when ich is discussed I'm left with more questions than answers. So if you would be so kind;

1. What is the length of time I should treat for ich with Copper? and hypo?

2. How do I diagnose velvet as opposed to ich?

3. what do I treat velvet with and for how long?

4. how do I prevent ich from getting into my DT?

5. how to treat inverts that may be carrying ich? i.e. snails having ich on their shells, etc.

6. How do I treat scaleless fish like mandarin's ?for ich


Please and Thank you

 

[snorvich]

Steve do you think ich is always present?

That is difficult. My personal opinion that ich is present on certain fish which often do not present symptoms because they are resistant. I think ich is present in a tank unless it has been left fallow for six weeks or more. But always present in all circumstances . . . I don't know.

 

[Dejavu]

Again, I recommend NOT treating until symptoms present themselves. However, I always treat with prazipro during the initial day of quarantine. But of course, each can do what they feel is best.

I don't think anyone is saying not to quarantine. I simply disagree with the methods involved. I am in the school of methodology of mpoletti.

Steve, once again I have to disagree. As I said above, symptoms don't always present themselves. There are many times that fish will hold ich in there gills and never show signs of it, even after 6 weeks.

How do you ever know if a fish is healthy or not? Mandarin's fall under this category. There slim coats are strong enough to hold back ich on their body but not their gill's. I have read a number of store where people didn't Qt there Mandarin and end up getting ich after they where added.

In my case all my fish went though a 8 week QT process, if not longer. Before I started treating cupermine for 6 weeks everytime, I would only treat if needed or for only 2 weeks. I did this with my flame wrasses, they never showed any signs of ich or have any fish I have ever added to my tank. But yet a few fish in my system have ich now and I'm in the process of fallowing my tank.

I can only concluded that it came from my flame wrasse as it happen after they were added and are still the only fish never to show any sign of ich. Plus there slime coat's are strong enough to remove it.

 

[NexDog]

I don't know why people still think Ich is always in a tank when there is plenty of scientific documentation on what Ich is. It's a an organism, if you kill it, and treat every fish for it that goes in your tank it can not be present (unless it was a hypo-resistant strain or you measured copper incorrectly).

Ok, I really do value the discussion here but it seems to me when ich is discussed I'm left with more questions than answers. So if you would be so kind;

No need to be confused with all the opinions, the facts are there:

1. What is the length of time I should treat for ich with Copper? and hypo?

Standard dosage for copper is 0.5mg/l for 2 weeks. I, and many others, treat for 3 weeks just to be sure. For hypo 4 weeks is considered to be okay, many treat for 6 weeks (and I used to).

2. How do I diagnose velvet as opposed to ich?

Very easily. Ich is white spot that can be uneven across the body. Velvet is more even and compact and gold in appearance, giving a fish that "velvety" look.

3. what do I treat velvet with and for how long?

Copper will kill it. But velvet will kill your fish quicker than copper will kill the velvet. Velvet kills quicker than Ich. If a fish shows signs of Velvet in a QT the best thing to do first is a freshwater dip, and a Formalin dip first. This will help knock down the parasite population and give the fish the time it will need. Then treat with copper for 2-3 weeks.

4. how do I prevent ich from getting into my DT?

If you have fish the DT already and they have never been treated the only way to be sure is to remove them all and to treat them and leave the DT fishless for 6 weeks. And then treat all new arrivals with Copper or hypo. Copper being the best I feeel, as it treats Velvet too.

5. how to treat inverts that may be carrying ich? i.e. snails having ich on their shells, etc.

I think you'd have to be extremely unlucky to have a Tomont come into a tank on a snail, coral, or even Live Rock. The Trophant by its very nature seeks substrate when it detaches from the fish and goes into the Tormont stage.

6. How do I treat scaleless fish like mandarin's ?for ich

It's possible to beat Ich without hypo or copper. The parasite infects and feeds on a fish for a maximum of 7 days before it drops off and encysts into the Tormont phase, where it can lay dormont for a maximum of 4 weeks. So what you can do is set up 2 quarantine tanks, treat with Formalin and freshwater dips and transfer fish to the other QT after 24 hours. Then empty and clean the first tank, fill with new water, transfer with back after 24 hours. Do this 4 times, over 8 days and the parasite should have dropped off and wouldn't have time to encyst and reinfect the fish.

Hope this clarifies things.

 

[ezhoops]

very very helpful, Thank you so much.

Maybe I'm a worrier but I still worry about that nass. snail that is dug out of the sand at the LFS and I put in my tank loaded with ich. can it happen?