New copperband died

[Paul B]

My new copperband died this morning as I assumed he would. I only had him a few days. He was not a good specimen to start with. I knew that but I got him cheap because he had some fungus on his mouth and I could see that he had some skin discoloration that comes with internal injuries. I was curious as to what his internal injuries were so I disected him. As I suspected the fish had internal injuries. A large area towards the rear and top was filled with blood.
Normally this area is white and just mussle. I am surprised he lived that long.
He probably received this injury when he was collected as this is common with very flat fish and comes from crushing either by a net or being squashed in a shipping bag.
He ate but not great. I knew he had problems but rarely this will clear up on it's own. Copperbands are delicate fish even in good condition.
His gills were clear, he had no more fungus and the rest of his organs looked normal. Unfortunately
he would have died no matter what was done.
It is what it is and it happens. :fish2:

 

[carlosR]

sorry to hear that because they can be great fish.

 

[Paul B]

They are a great fish. In this picture taken yesterday you can see two injury places, one below the black spot on his lateral line just to the left of the yellow bar and one to the left of the spot.
I say this when I got him and figured he would not last long.

 

[goober35]

Man im sorry for the loss, but as you said he was sick when you got him and you did not expect him to last but sometimes its worth a try to help them out.

 

[billsreef]

From the area you found the blood, I'd give good odds that the fish was needle decompressed by the diver.

 

[nygiants72]

sorry for the lost. Its hard to lose a life that nice. Did you know where the fish was being caught from?

 

[Paul B]

From the area you found the blood, I'd give good odds that the fish was needle decompressed by the diver.

Could be, it's hard to tell but the fish had two bumpy areas and they went all the way through.

I have no idea where they collected the fish but today I will get another one from a different store from hopefully a different collector. But this time I will get a healthy one. That one I knew had problems and I knew when it died I would disect it to see what the problem was.

 

[Aquarist007]

From the area you found the blood, I'd give good odds that the fish was needle decompressed by the diver.

not familiar with needle compression---can you explain a little more?

 

[Aquarist007]

Sorry for you loss Paul. Is there a way to tell if their is internal damage in a fish from the use of cyanide to harvest them.
My understanding is that this continues to be a major threat in Indonesia where alot of vendors purchase "cheaper" fish.

 

[Paul B]

I doubt it was cyanide caused, that would not cause the bleeding I noticed and would more affect the organs.
Needle de compression is sometimes used on fish that were collected in deep water, the diver will stick a hypodermic in the fishes swim bladder to relieve preasure and be able to bring fish up faster. The swim bladder is filled with air and could burst because when a fish (or a diver) surfaces any air will expand, it could actually expand double in 30' of water. This can kill the fish or cause an embolism in a diver, but a diver just has to exhale to prevent this from happening, a fishes swim bladder is not connected to his mouth, in some fish it is like Beta's and lung fish but a copperband butterfly could not release the air quickly from it's baldder.
most bony fish have a swim bladder but not sharks as they have no bones.
The swim bladder is a large organ sometimes the largest organ in a fish, it is used to maintain buoyancy, if not for that, the fish would sink. That is how they maintain their position in the water. A diver uses a BC or buoyancy compensator.
Fish like sharks use oil in their liver to "help" with buoyancy, but they still sink when they stop swimming as do flounders and other bottom fish that would have a small swim bladder or almost none at all.

Boomer sooms to think the copperbands problem was caused by a paracite that is deadly in most circumstances if it gains a foothold on a fish, it is Uronema Marnum
That paracite which is in most tanks notmally does not affect anything but in a weakened fish it could invade the fish and destroy it from the inside out by invading the organs and eating blood. It could cause internal bleeding.
My fish was bleeding in the mussles near the spine, I think it was a squeezing injury but it could have been injured than attacked by Uronema.
Me, not being a fish pathologist, have no idea. But it was loaded with bright red blood in an area far away from it's organs.

 

[Dustin1300]

I was thinking cyanide but then you mentioned the internal bleeding. Probably was mishandled somewhere along the way

 

[wilsonreefs]

Have you ever wondered how many fish just don't make it from the collector? I bet people collecting these fish are NOT careful with them. I would think the way they see it there's more where they came from. It's a shame, but I bet I'm right on most cases..

Carl

 

[Dustin1300]

The way these fish are caught is just a shame. If I knew who caught them in this manner I'd not ever support the sales but really hard to tell who to believe

 

[TripleT]

Best to not reward collection/sale of any unhealthy fish with your hard earned cash.

Try to spend your money in stores with the healthiest fish. Even if you're buying dry goods only.

In the long run it's best for the fish, and the hobby.

Our $$$ is the biggest influence we have.

 

[Paul B]

Have you ever wondered how many fish just don't make it from the collector?

I have been to many Islands and have seen them collect fish quite a few times. Fish are very cheap, almost free. Many of the people who collect these fish hardly get paid anything. Many of them are collected in fish traps. I have seen these large fish traps on Caribbean Islands. The fish are sold on the beach for 50 cents a pound.
A guy there was selling lookdowns for $1.25. He wanted to give me a moray eel for free because he couldn't sell it for food. The lookdowns and flying fish were also sold as food as were all the other fish in the traps.
The cost is in holding the fish in a facility and the shipping. The fish that were caught by divers cost much more but not really that much.
Probably half to 3/4 of the fish that are collected either die near where they are collected or in transit from the sea to the holding facility or from the facility to the airport. The places where these animals are collected are all hot. If you have gone to many obcure Islands, the airports are not all that efficient and the crates could lay in the sun all day and if they don't fit on the plane, they lay another day.

 

[Aquarist007]

I have been to many Islands and have seen them collect fish quite a few times. Fish are very cheap, almost free. Many of the people who collect these fish hardly get paid anything. Many of them are collected in fish traps. I have seen these large fish traps on Caribbean Islands. The fish are sold on the beach for 50 cents a pound.
A guy there was selling lookdowns for $1.25. He wanted to give me a moray eel for free because he couldn't sell it for food. The lookdowns and flying fish were also sold as food as were all the other fish in the traps.
The cost is in holding the fish in a facility and the shipping. The fish that were caught by divers cost much more but not really that much.
Probably half to 3/4 of the fish that are collected either die near where they are collected or in transit from the sea to the holding facility or from the facility to the airport. The places where these animals are collected are all hot. If you have gone to many obcure Islands, the airports are not all that efficient and the crates could lay in the sun all day and if they don't fit on the plane, they lay another day.

That is disgusting and a waste of one of our most beautiful resources. Too bad fish are not covered by any laws or humane societies---even an organization like green peace.

 

[scubasteve06]

Best to not reward collection/sale of any unhealthy fish with your hard earned cash.

Try to spend your money in stores with the healthiest fish. Even if you're buying dry goods only.

In the long run it's best for the fish, and the hobby.

Our $$$ is the biggest influence we have.

I think that Paul has been in the hobby far longer than all of us put together in this page. I don't think he was rewarding this sale, but trying to save this fish with his extensive knowledge of marine organisms. Of course buying the healthiest specimens will make your dollar go furthest. He also stated that he got this specimen for cheap, so the loss wasn't too bad.

 

[Paul B]

even an organization like green peace.

Greenpeace does whales very good. Fish are protected in the places where they are collected but again, if you have ever been to these places those laws could not be enacted. Most people on those Islands are very poor and need this business so they can eat.
I once saw an older gentleman on (I think St Lucia), he would go to the beach early every morning with a small boy who I think was his Grand Son. He would catch a few land hermit crabs, that are very common and use them for bait. He would fish for an hour or so for breakfast for him and this boy.
There is no Social Security, Medicaid or social services in any of these places that I am aware of.
Should he and this boy starve because he is eating the fish we want to put in our tanks to "look" at?
The guy selling the fish on the beach was also doing that as that was how he made a living. The fish he could not sell just rotted on the beach for the crabs to feast on at night.
I eat fish almost every day and I know that for every fish I eat there were many more that we call "trash" fish and are just discarded.
On the Island of Jamaica I have seen literally tons of corals that were drying in the sun ready to be bleached to sell to tourists.
I don't know if they still do that but many of the people on that Island have little more than a piece of plastic sheet to call home.
Should we forbid them to collect coral? What should we give them to do?
I would imagine that there are places where fish are collected that the people are not poor but I have also been to wealthy Islands like Aruba, Hawaii and the Caymans, I don't think they collect fish there as they are protected and the people have better lifestyles than I do in NY.

I don't know what the answer is but it would be great if instead of collecting these fish in the sea, the govt. or some other envirmentally concious organization would fence off areas of the sea to propagate these animals that we would like to use for our enjoyment.
Shrimp are farm raised as are trout and salmon, why not copperband butterflies.
There are hundreds of deserted Islands all over the globe that could be used for this purpose. None of those Islands have fresh water which is the reason they are deserted but if these places could be used to "farm" tropical fish and corals, it would help greatly to preserve the natural resources.
The fish would do all the work on their own, they would just have to be either fenced in or placed in large saltwater ponds connected to the sea so that the fishes natural foods could get in. Near by local people could be employed to collect the fish and mend the fences. There would have to be some sort of way to prevent the fry from escaping to the open sea but I am sure we could come up with something. Think about those livebearer enclosures we used to raise guppies in where the babies would fall through slots to be protected from the parents.
If anyone has a few spare million, I will go there and do it.

 

[bdbyace28]

These fish are difficult to acclimate especially if you have any semi aggressive fish in the tank. I wouldn' get one unless I had community fish only or he was the first fish to be added to the tank.

 

[pinetree]

even an organization like green peace.

Woe... watch what you wish for. :twitch:

If it were up to them, the ONLY fish and coral available would be strictly captive bred / grown.
It is too easy for us, who basically have everything, to not consider the livelihoods of many people from these impoverished island communities who's only option for providing for themselves and their families rests in the marine ornamental industry.
Getting this to a sustainable state is doable. It really takes proper management minus the greed of a few.

An example of a good model for sustainable management of an ornamental fishery:

http://projectpiaba.org/

In National Geographic News:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070328-pets-fish.html

Anyway - back to issues with CBB's, They generally do not seem very hardy. Yea, there are many exceptions but the vast majority to not make it in captivity and we should probably not keep them.