New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[SERVO]

Charles,

I was always skeptical about the husbandry of these organisms. Furthermore, I have been a nihilist regarding the success of other hobbyists anecdotal tank accomplishments. I applaud you in your efforts to increase our knowledge about the sustainability of these azooxanthellate organisms and filter feeding organisms using methodical evidence based observational analysis. I was not aware that anyone was having any remote success in sustaining crinoids, basket stars and other azooxanthellate corals. I guess I spend too much time in the SPS forums.

I am a "lazy reefer" who prefers the set it and forget it method. I would love a tank filled with Gorgonians and Dendronepthia, but for me and my available time, I currently can not take on such tasks. There are no specimens more beautiful on the reefs than some of these organisms. I only hope that in due time we are all able to care for them.

Some day I'll join the club, but for now, I'll sit by curiously wishing everyone continued success.

Best of luck. Your tank is truly tank of the month.

 

[Fredfish]

Nice article. I was hoping for some overall system schematics and some growth sequence shots. Hopefully that will come in a future article.

Some Questions:

Have you made any attempt to figure out how long food like the rotifers stay in the water column after they are introduced to the tank? I know you dose continually so there is always food in the system, but I have always wondered how long such foods might stay available for capture.

Have you been able to observe the capture and ingestion of rotifers by any of the corals? I know from my own efforts that it can be very very hard to tell when such a small organism is captured AND ingested.

I am also curious how close to the tank the food is located. Do you have long tube runs between the food source and the tank? Do you find that you get food acumulation in the feeder tubes?

I have been attempting to set up the same feeding system (but never quite get around to completing it) and have wondered how much of an issue food getting stuck and accumulating in the feeder tubes might be.

Looking forward to a follow up article or two.

 

[timwijgerde]

Nice article Charles!

I have recently written an article about Dendronephthya hemprichi in a dutch magazine, Het Zeeaquarium (the marine Aquarium).

It's nice to see someone creating a specialized setup. In the Netherlands, a similar system has been set up. It's actually a circular shaped acrylic tank, full of Dendronephthya sp.

For all you enthusiasts, here is the link to his thread:

http://www.zeewaterforum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45328&page=4

It's all in dutch, I hope the pictures will speak for themselves. Ask questions in English, and they will reply.

I am currently experimenting with a friend of mine, using Fauna Marin food (Ultra-Pac, Ultra-clam, Ultra min S etc) and several cultured algae species like Isochrysis and Phaeodactylum cornotum.

We are investigating whether this feeding regime will sustain healthy Comatula sp (feather stars), bivalves like Limaria scabra and several azooxanthellate gorgonians and Dendronephthya sp.

We will report about this in 6 -12 months in the before mentioned Dutch magazine. If the results are promising, we would like to publish our data here as well, and maybe in reefkeeping, if the editor is interested, of course.

Keep up the good work, and I would love to see a follow-up article on this.

 

[Fredfish]

Timw, it would be great if you could post any interim results or observations here as well. How about starting off with a description of your system (pics too??).

It seems there is a persistant interest in this very difficult to keep group of corals and it would be nice to reach critical mass so that we can have our own group.

Fred

 

[charles matthews]

Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. First, let me emphasize that this is Chuck Stottlemire's tank, not mine, and I feel it should be called the Stottlemire Method in honor of Chuck's work and as a reference to his method. No doubt we will all be exploring variants on his approach.

I don't have time to respond to all the questions yet, and will try to do so soon. Am or Chuck may weigh in in a bit. Regarding the method of food dispersal, I have found that the use of a syringe pump is much easier than using a bucket and bubbler. A syringe pump is available from syringepump.com for $275 and will hold a 60ml syringe. A Luer-lock syringe (available for about 2 dollars from many pharmacies) will take an airline tube. I keep mine on a platform about six inches above the tank, with a short segment of rigid airline tube at the end. I mix 400 ml of Shellfish Diet with 200ml of RotiFeast in a beaker, and draw up 60 ml each 12 hours and clap it in the pump and I'm done. No mixing with tank water, no problems with suspension or clogging.

One thing I didn't put in the article- on first arriving, Dendros tend to autoamputate; they spontaneously drop branchlets. This process seems to be assisted if you go ahead and frag them generously soon after arrival. Anything that doesn't look right, go ahead and frag. They attach best to smooth surfaces within a few days; cyanoacrylate gel doesn't work. Those frag holders (I forget the name) work well; don't make the rubber band too tight. Put them in gentle flow for about three to five days, by that time they are attached; then move to higher flow. The frags may do better than the original colonies.

I'm interested in adapting Chuck's ideas to smaller systems and hobbyist aquaculture and hope to have another article soon.

 

[Fredfish]

Thanks for the replies Charles. Looking forward to more details on Chuck's tank when you have time.

I lookt at syringe pumps but never quite understood how they worked so I ended up picking up a 3 channel persistaltic pump pulled from some oem equipment for about $80.

One of the other reasons I chose the peristaltic pump was that I was (and still am) looking at dosing live phyto which will hold better nutrirional value in an aerated environment.

If you look online for used equipment, such a pump should be a very economical alternative.

Fred

 

[timwijgerde]

Hi Fred,

well, the specs on the Dendro tank (see link) are in the thread.

My friend's tank and mine are basic Berlin systems. The point is we simply overfeed, rather than shutting down the skimmer or using plankton-saving equipment.

We also use the Wodka-method and phosphate absorbant. I use active charcoal as well. My friend has some mangrove trees in his refugium.

My theory is that if the retention time of the food is above a certain minimum level, the animals are allowed to capture it.

It is, however, optimal to use either interval-skimming or a plankton-friendly nutrient removal system like algae or mangrove trees.

Detailed info will be released in the article, but I guess we can agree that the filtration and feeding methods are key here. Parameters like water flow and lighting are important as well, but secondary I think (except for D. hemprichi , which has high prey capture rates for specific flow rates. Certain sea fans which grow perpendicular to ocean currents might need very high flow as well).

Oh and Fred, I will try to post some nice pics soon of the animals. It is really nice to see a feather-star and gorgonian quickly respond to Fauna Marin food by opening up!

 

[Kolognekoral]

Tim, do you know the genus of Crinoid you are holding? I have had success with Dichrometra, the green-white species, but the others seem to require a different food, possibly bacteria in large quantites. Is anyone managing to maintain Himerometra or Cenometra in good health?

 

[Kreeger1]

not positive on the ID for the feather star in my tank. Its black with yellow tips and is mainly noctornal. I've had it for several months with no leg loss. I don't see any reason that it will not continue to fair well in my tank for years too come. I'm feeding the same foods as chucks tank and he's kept them for over a year at least.
Erik

 

[timwijgerde]

Hi Kolognecoral,

my animal is a Himerometra sp.

It does show some leg loss, but only the tips. It still responds well to feeding. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Stottlemire]

If your featherstar is loosing the tips of its arms it, is slowly starving to death. It might appear to be feeding, but probably is not able to take in the food your feeding.

Chuck

 

[Kolognekoral]

Tim, interesting! I have to agree with Chuck, when they loose their tips, something is missing. It has been theorized that these Crinoid types require a fine food, such as bacteria or phytoplankton, which are difficult to supply in sufficient quantity.

I have changed over to using the Zeovit method for my main tank and refugium, which has led to an increased bacteria population, plus the additional bacterial mulm put out by the filter. I may seek one of these Crinoids out and see if I have better luck with this system. In addition, as many in Europe I use Timo food 1 and 3, plus Ultra Marines Sea Fan, Clam plus Cyclopeze. I have started working with KZ Coral Snow, which seems to bring benefits.

I checked out the European resources for Reed Marine products and they are over twice the price in Europe as in the USA.. I'll be in the States this Spring-Summer and plan to bring some back to play with.

 

[dendronephthya]

Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. I wanted to respond to Fredfish's thoughts about a peristaltic pump and life algae. I've worked with two different types of peristaltic pumps, several types of live algae, intermittent dosing of live algae, culturing of live algae myself, several attempts at developing a live phytoplankton recirculating system...

If you look at the dry weights of the commercial algae product and the amounts fed, this is equivalent to close to 50 gallons of dense live phytoplankton culture over 24 hours into a 180 gallon system (before dilution into the larger reservoir). Although it is tempting to use live algae, two problems arise. First, that much live algae produces pH changes and probably introduces algae culturing nutrients that were not consumed. Second, Shellfish Diet is a good nutritional mix of species, and I think that is important. It's hard to culture Isocrysis and the like. That is one of the insights of the "Stottlemire Method".

I find the syringe pump way easier than a bubbler and peristaltic pump; my lines get clogged over time.

Regardign "bacteria", I doubt Dendronephthya eat them. Fabaricius noted no significant procaryotes in the coelenterons of Dendronephthya in the Red Sea, even though they were an order of magnitude more numerous than eucaryotes. Also, although you could argue species and such, bacterial levels are probably elevated in reef systems compared to the natural environment . (I have references on these somewhere...Tyree has tested, so has Harker, ...).. so our goal isn't just to elevate numbers of bacteria so the dendros can eat them. It's likely, however, that the slime on the aquarium wall, and the associated copepod production and other microorganism stiumlation with the vodka addition, is helping as well.

 

[Siapin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11827221#post11827221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendronephthya
Hello everyone, Charles Matthews here. I wanted to respond to Fredfish's thoughts about a peristaltic pump and life algae. I've worked with two different types of peristaltic pumps, several types of live algae, intermittent dosing of live algae, culturing of live algae myself, several attempts at developing a live phytoplankton recirculating system...

If you look at the dry weights of the commercial algae product and the amounts fed, this is equivalent to close to 50 gallons of dense live phytoplankton culture over 24 hours into a 180 gallon system (before dilution into the larger reservoir). Although it is tempting to use live algae, two problems arise. First, that much live algae produces pH changes and probably introduces algae culturing nutrients that were not consumed. Second, Shellfish Diet is a good nutritional mix of species, and I think that is important. It's hard to culture Isocrysis and the like. That is one of the insights of the "Stottlemire Method".

I find the syringe pump way easier than a bubbler and peristaltic pump; my lines get clogged over time.

Regardign "bacteria", I doubt Dendronephthya eat them. Fabaricius noted no significant procaryotes in the coelenterons of Dendronephthya in the Red Sea, even though they were an order of magnitude more numerous than eucaryotes. Also, although you could argue species and such, bacterial levels are probably elevated in reef systems compared to the natural environment . (I have references on these somewhere...Tyree has tested, so has Harker, ...).. so our goal isn't just to elevate numbers of bacteria so the dendros can eat them. It's likely, however, that the slime on the aquarium wall, and the associated copepod production and other microorganism stiumlation with the vodka addition, is helping as well.

Sir Charles, very insightful. I was wondering, since you have tested various methods, does that mean that culturing phytoplankton and dosing it in the aquarium is inadequate? Is it ultimately benefit-less to culture and dose live phytoplankton? It seems like you are eluding to that.

Are there any benefits to dosing live phytoplankton over dosing commercially "bottled" concentrated algae products? Or is it just not enough food for the invertebrates?

What about using natural sea water? Would there be any benefits in using that, as far as filter-feeding foods are concerned (ie bacteria, algaes)?

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11826481#post11826481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral

I checked out the European resources for Reed Marine products and they are over twice the price in Europe as in the USA.. I'll be in the States this Spring-Summer and plan to bring some back to play with.

you can buy direct and have it shipped to your door if you can get good shipping rates.

 

[Stottlemire]

GReshamH,

How are you ? I have not heard from you in a while. How is the set up you were working on going?

Chuck

 

[Kreeger1]

Looking at one of my newer dendros tonight I noticed a small white almost see through crab living in it. Has anyone else seen anything like that. I will try to get amy over to take a decent picture of it.
Erik

 

[sammy33]

I was thinking more about the feedings. These have to be done daily the way Chuck described in his article? How do you deal with vacations?

Could you somehow employ rotifer and pytoplankton culture stations set to auto-dose the tank? I was thinking about a small little plankton factory near the tank? :idea:

 

[timwijgerde]

Hi guys,

you are right, when the tentacles of the animal are breaking off, it's not a good sign. The animal was doing this just after, and during, transport. I think it is mechanical damage as well, being shiped in a too small container.

The breaking off seems to have ceased now. The big question is how it will do during the next months. My friend is seeing regeneration of broken off tips, however, I think this the easier Comatula sp.

I guess time will tell... it's great to see bivalves doing well, and seeing sponges and a Scleronephthya actually grow!

 

[beez]

Idea for an auto feeder

Idea for an auto feeder

I'm in the planning stage of my first nonphoto tank, and here's my latest lame-brained idea for an auto feeder that would allow me to leave town for a few days:

Staying consistent with Chuck's feeding method, how about placing a lidded plastic container inside an office refrigerator that would hold maybe 2-3 gallons of saltwater plus a couple weeks supply of Reed's shellfish diet/rotifeast. Keeping the mix inside the fridge should allow everything to be mixed together without necessarily being used right away. My idea was to then use a LiterMeter outside the fridge to dose the mix into the sump, and the motorized unit from an old kalk stirrer on top of the fridge with the stir rod inserted into the container through a tiny hole drilled in the top of the fridge. Anyone have any opinions on how well this would work?

I like the syringe pump idea but again I think a lot of people will need something that doesn't ALWAYS require daily attention.

For stirring the mix, an airstone attached to an air pump outside the fridge wouldn't be doable because the constant input of romm temp. air would make it impossible for the temp. to be kept low enough. I suppose it might be possible to put the air pump in the fridge but I'd be hesitant about the effect on the pump.

Eh?