New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[shaded]

Ok been toying with this in my head. A friend told me once that he used to add small amounts of banana milk shake (real home made) into his reef tank and the fish and corals would go crazy over it. He seemed to think bananas where high in something corals needed. So it got me thinking if we an find out what dendros require from their food (not type but the break down of vitamins fats proteins etc..) we could find possible solutions. I read something about vodka being used to reduce nitrate so could the answer for dedros be in something silly like adding sugar to our reefs

just a wacky idea lol input would be gd

 

[reefclown]

I've been toying with a way to rapidly remove the p and n added from large scale feeding. Theory has it that bacteria are carbon limited, so adding a carbon source (like vodka) creates an increase in bacterial population (decrease in oxygen, p and n), but the question still remains of the most efficient means of exporting the bacteria. If nothing else if keeps them jolly

Would be great if a 3 hour bacterial bloom could be efficiently exported from a system and oxygen levels not serverly depleted.:bum:

been a long night, had a few glasses, starting to sound too close to zeo, but right now still think the generic theory holds true

 

[MCsaxmaster]

I don't believe there is any evidence that bacteria are generally carbon limited either in our tanks, or especially in nature. This idea keeps popping up every few years, and folks think it is new everytime, but it has yet to show any merit that I've seen. Sure, folks claim that dosing vodka and such have positive effects, but folks claim all sorts of things. This doesn't mean they have a clue what is going on in their tanks. The data we have from real reefs suggests that bacteria generally are not carbon limited.

Best,

Chris

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

I don't believe there is any evidence that bacteria are generally carbon limited either in our tanks, or especially in nature.

Hi Chris

I think you are comparing apples (aquarium) with oranges (natural reefs). How many tanks are there, that have N and P concentrations which are as low as those found in nature? Very few I would say. Next question: How much C is bioavailable in natural Seawater, compared to aquaria? How do you measure this, either in Nature or in you tank?

Regarding nutrient limitation in the Ocean, if you go into your local University library and look for references about this subject you will find hundreds of papers dealing with this issue. Most natural systems are either P limited or Fe limited.
Just by looking at the postings in various boards here in RC or somewhere else, I think it is reasonable to assume that there are more tanks that have too high N and P levels (compared to Nature) than there are tanks with too little.

Best wishes

Jens

 

[graveyardworm]

I am curious if anyone has done any experimenting or feeding with any of the Liquid Life products. Over this past weekend I purchased a bottle of Liquid Life Coral Plankton, and I've been feeding at the recommended dose in my 10 gal unskimmed dendro tank, as with the selcon which I had previously tried feeding, my dendro polyps seem to be feeding I cant verify that they are getting what they need. Given some time perhaps there will be growth.

 

[graveyardworm]

Eric Borneman's latest article in RK mag here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.htm has me thinking alittle bit about nonphotosynthetic and their relationship to oxygen levels present in NSW and in our tanks. Since they dont contains zoo for photosynthesis or respiration then perhaps they are more dependent on O2 levels in their surrounding environment than most other corals. Maybe this could help to explain why some people are successful while others are not. Just a thought

Does anyone know if any studies have been done in this area to determine how dependent nonphotosynthetic corals are on proper O2 levels.

 

[charles matthews]

Graveyardworm- I have begun to suspect nocturnal o2 levels may be a problem for the dendros, especially as they are more heavily fed. I also note the paper by Widdig found 2.5X uptake of phyto by dendros when the water movement was driven by a (turbulent) airstone rather than a stirrer- unusual since dendros naturally tend to flourish best in laminar flow. I am about to add airstones near my colonies to test this.

Bacterial uptake of nutrients is a fascinating idea. One was is to recycle this in a sponge, then squeezed to be exported to the filter feeders or to the skimmer; another is good old sand stirring, as reported by Peter Wilkins. Note the history of RTN ascribed to sand stirring. I think sand stirring is a great idea- IF done thoughtfully. Regular sand stirring (I do it twice daily in the remote refugium) appears to be safe. Disturbing very anoxic beds does not seem safe in confined spaces of our aquaria. As an aside, I suspect the quality of the detritus from the sponges is better than that from the sand, as more refractory organics will havae no place to settle but in/on the substrate, whereas what's coming out of the passive sponge is due to bacterial growth alone.

Any suggestions for automating the sponge or sand stirring process would be appreciated. I have tried lots of ways, unsuccessfully. I am considering setting up an experimental tank (yet another one!), in which air is released under sand periodically. This may also work for so-called luxury uptake of phhosphorus, in which facultative anaerobes store phosphorus when they are reperfused.

Also- my sudden recent colony loss of 12 7 month old dendros in this system, along with sponges, was traced to my excessive dosing of Kent chelated iron. I have stopped all trace element additions except silicate.

One last thought- if your Tubastrea are not growing and spawning on what you are feeding the tank or spot feeding the dendros, it is unlikely that the dendros are getting enough food. It's amazing how much these Tubastrea eat like pigs.

 

[Herpervet]

I drew this up awhile back. Sorry if I already posted it to this thread. Just a brain storm on the automated sand stirring idea and certainly would need lots of tweaking to make it work.

 

[Herpervet]

One other random thought: Have you heard about the dialyseas system? Its a dialysis membrane technology made for aquarium use.

In dialyzes the water and the end result can be viewed as simply an automated water change but done on a continual basis.

The claim is that the system allows a drastic increase in bioload while maintaining pristine water quality all things being equal. The claim seems plausable if you understand what dialysis does.

How does this apply to dendro husbandry? I don't know but anything that will drastically increase the ability to add foods without leading to major water quality issues seems like it would have some potential.

Phytoplankton could be added more agressively without without phosphate problems perhaps?

Here is a link:

http://www.seavisions.com/prod02.htm

 

[craab]

I drew this up awhile back. Sorry if I already posted it to this thread. Just a brain storm on the automated sand stirring idea and certainly would need lots of tweaking to make it work.

pretty interesting idea, couple of questions/thoughts.

How often would you move the gravel cleaner between chambers?

Any idea on types of substrate you would use, I am thinking a large diameter coral rubble substrate would be fine, as well as a medium sized agronite substrate, but would fine sugar sized might be too small to use.

 

[Herpervet]

My thought was that you would different grades of rubble in each compartment but who knows. One would simply try different things and see what types of stuff worked best.

Same goes for how often you would move the modified siphon kleen.

If I was going to actually do this I would use some sort of grid over the top of the tank so that the apparatus could be moved systematically around each compartment probably every day.

I would probably sink the tube to the bottom of the sand to maximize the mixing also.

The key would be finding grades of sand/gravel that will churn and not form a mass that simply climbs up the tube. If you have ever used a siphon kleen you know what I am talking about.

Anyway this sort of thing would take alot of tweeking to make work if it would work at all.

 

[Herpervet]

You could also design a "bank" of large fluidized bed filters that would be turned on in a sequential fashion. i.e. one would turn on for 1 hour a day then the next one and so on and so forth.

Lets say you had 12 of them so each bed got a 11 day rest between stirring. (if done as illustrated it would be REALLY EXPENSIVE because the ball valves are pricey)

Obviously the water would have to flow across the beds without fluidizing them in between stirring.

Here is a DIY plan for one:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_fbf.php

Here is a thought on modification:

When the actuated ball valve is in this mode the sand is stirred:

and when it is in the other mode it is not:

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

HI

The automated sand stirring idea is neat, but a bit complicated. Perhaps some engineers can find a simple (and cheap) solution.
I observed something else: When I grab into my refugium and shake and wiggle the Caulerpa, quite a bit of fine stuff comes loose from the leaves, and my non-photosynthetic gorgonia just go mad about that stuff. Usually they are open all day, but a few minutes after stirring the Caulerpa the polyps extend much further.

Just my little observation, perhaps somebody can try this with Dendros and post his comments on it.

Cheers
Jens

 

[craab]

I think it will work and it wont take too much work, just need to find a way to stabilize the siphon tube in the gravel.

 

[charles matthews]

Appreciate the thoughts on automation. I do have two large refugia and stir the sand and shake the Chaetomorpha frequently. I find two probable shortcomings with this. First, is that no matter how "milky" the water becomes, it usually clears within minutes to a few hours.

The second problem is that I suspect the particles generated by a macroalgae refugium are not small enough, and possibly also not of the right nurtitional quality. I think there are bacteriofilms all ober the tank surfaces, that quickly "stick" small particles and grow over them. I suspect there is very little under 100 microns that survives after an hour or so.

My idea is to put a vibrating pad (the sore muscles kind) under the sand bed, cover it in plastic screen to keep it from working out of the sand, and place about two inches of mixed Southdown and rubble on the surface, and use an appliance timer to vibrate the sand bed for fifteen minutes every hour or so. I would also either dose silicate with measurements, or perhaps add silica sand, to allow diatom growth (which may very well have the right pigments, being brown). This would be very effective recycling of biofilms and bacteria and phytoplankton.

The alternating aerobic/anoxic sequence is used in water processing to promote luxury uptake of phosphorus- apparently, stressed cells more actively take up this nutrient.

One possible problem would be sudden changes in redox or liberation of sand bed toxins. But, I suspect, if done regularly/hourly, it might be beneficial.

I am setting up a tank with the pad, substrate, a Turbelle stream, and a holding platform for a dendro, and see how we do. I'll keep the tank at 76 degrees, and close enough to a window to grow diatoms. It wil be interesting to see how alkainity does in this tank as well.

Tank wall biofilms can be kept to a minimum with a breeding small snail population- when I dose silica, I always get vigorous snail breeding. Snail waste will recycle.

what do you think?

 

[MitchMC]

They have been observed growing in full sunlight in Philippine aquaculture fish cages, where the fish are heavily fed......
Charles

I find this to be very interesting
I think the key is probably food (plus flow) not light, temp ect.
Do you have any more details on this observed growth ?
What were they feeding the fish, perhaps the dendros like ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œcrapââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ there is lots of that in the water they do well in, would also correspond to antidotal reports of them doing well in sump and when sandbeds are stired up

Delbeek writes in this article

These studies showed that octocorals tend to be highly selective for non-evasive forms such as mollusc larvae; indicating poor capture ability of more elusive prey such as large adult copepods. This poor capture ability is most likely due to the lack of effective nematocysts, resulting in the selection of less motile prey (Fabricius et al., 1995a).

Aside (I really need to get Fabriciusââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s article )

I came across this sourse of acquaculture food

http://www.innovativeaqua.com/

The produce in question is TrochoFeed

TrochoFeed is a cryopreserved starter feed for larval marine fish. TrochoFeed is the first and only "instant live feed" for marine larval rearing. It is a suspension of living trochophore-stage Pacific oyster larvae in seawater, cryopreserved in liquid nitrogen until the moment they're needed to feed your fish. Trochophores are an ideal first feed for larval marine fish because they are 50Ã"šÃ‚µ, free-swimming ciliated organisms that are extremely high in nutritional value. ........IN AN ARTICLE ON THE SAME WEB PAGE CALLED "The storage and use of cryopreserved oyster trochophores as food for larvae" THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS ARE MADE ............ Oyster trochophores are extremely small in size, have an ideal nutritional composition, and are slow swimming. Oyster trochophores, at about 50 microns diameter, are about one quarter the size of rotifers and one tenth the size of brine shrimp nauplii. Trochophores have only the marine fatty acids typical of crustacean zooplankton, including 15% 20:5n3 (EPA) and 15% 22:6n3 (DHA), so they are better nutritionally than rotifers or brine shrimp for marine fish larvae. Trochophores are even nutritionally superior to rotifers or brine shrimp with fatty acid supplements, since there are no low-n fatty acids in trochophores. The low-n fatty acids have to be metabolized by the fish larvae but are not normally found in wild larvae.

I hate the cost and the hassle of nitrogen refridegerator you need but I am close to thier location and I am going to drop by and see if they have some "old stock" or reject material that is not up to snuff for this application but could be feed "dead' to tanks.

Bigger than phylo smaller than rotifers, slow moving mullusc larva might do the trick

Has anybody read Coral Farming: Past, Present and Future Trends
J. Charles Delbeek ?

 

[MitchMC]

Re: New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

I am interested in forming a study group for Dendronepnthya sp. husbandry. Are there others that share this interest? Should it be a thread- or, as I would prefer, a new forum?

time for a new forum :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[d34532]

Hi all,

Its great to see that you guys are working on the study on these wonderful coral. I have read all that you guys have wrote and was wondering how is the progress. I would also like to help as much as I can. Here is some eye candy for right now found a health one at an online store open house(pic is the coral in my tank). Im sorry for the size of

Current tank spec.
120g mix reef tank
water flow about 3100 or about 25x
fish: blue tang and regel
invert: snails and 4 cleaner shrimps
Coral: arco, hammer coral, xenia, montipora
lighting: 2 x 175w 10k mh
placement bottom of tank on the sand rightside up. Reason is the LR that came with it had solid Coralline algea on it.
I'll hopefully have more information as to where it was collected from loc and maybe date also.
Food wise: selcon, cyclop-eeze FS soak in selcon, food from fish (if it gets any)

Any recommendation?

 

[d34532]

Hey all,

An Idea just come to me but wasn't sure if any of you have though about it an automate sand stirer. I was thinking that if we use a horseshoe crab to stir the sand. I know that they can move stuff that we don't want and damge stuff also but if we use a box that have grid on all side and flop it upside down and trap that crab to only live in that area and it can move and turn over the sand all it wants? has one done this or think it will work?

 

[MadTownMax]

interesting idea - automated sand stirring has come up multiple times, with a very wide variety of ideas - does this have any effect on the health of these corals is still debatable though.

The only problem you might have w/ your idea is that horseshoe crabs get to be about 20" long (without the tail about 12" ) so your box will have to be pretty big to give it enough to eat - - sorry, not wanting to be a downer....

nassarius (sp?) snails burrow in and out of the sand a lot though, you might want to give them a try...