Jens Kallmeyer
New member
How 'bout some sand sifter gobies? They really work through a lot of sediment during the day.
Best wishes
Jens
Best wishes
Jens
New Deodronephthya sp. study group?
- Thread starter charles matthews
- Start date
Also an option, as would be sand-stirring starfish - but both need quite large sandbeds (starting at about 2X4' ) to be able to sustain enough microfauna in the sand to keep the animals healthy.
MichMC - as far as your oyster larvae are concerned, I use DT's oyster eggs - they're almost identicle (go figure, egg-larvae
) only difference is that they're non=motile - I spot-fed my dendro oyster eggs and noticed good results, although I just don't think I had the flow required for these guys.
A few other thoughts:
I have to admit I find the Dendro growth on fish cages the most encouraging - an evaluation of these conditions compared with those of more typical dendro-growing locations should lead us to at least a few new ideas on husbandry.
Has anyone tried these w/ the ZEO-Vit method? supposedly the zeolites grow a bacterial film that feeds corals and shaking 1X a day is part of the method - if the dendros eat bacteria, it seems like a good match.
MichMC - as far as your oyster larvae are concerned, I use DT's oyster eggs - they're almost identicle (go figure, egg-larvae
) only difference is that they're non=motile - I spot-fed my dendro oyster eggs and noticed good results, although I just don't think I had the flow required for these guys.A few other thoughts:
I have to admit I find the Dendro growth on fish cages the most encouraging - an evaluation of these conditions compared with those of more typical dendro-growing locations should lead us to at least a few new ideas on husbandry.
Has anyone tried these w/ the ZEO-Vit method? supposedly the zeolites grow a bacterial film that feeds corals and shaking 1X a day is part of the method - if the dendros eat bacteria, it seems like a good match.
MadTownMax and Jens Kallmeyer
Good idea on the goby and the sand star only problem with those 2 that I though was they probably eat the small stuff also? I know that the horseshoe crab with get large too but I was thinking about them because they move the hell of a lot of sand when I had them in my early years when the LFS told me they stayed small. I wouldn't really get a crab and get rid of it without knowing someone that wanted one when it gets big. mine is not a dendro but its very close to care level.
Good idea on the goby and the sand star only problem with those 2 that I though was they probably eat the small stuff also? I know that the horseshoe crab with get large too but I was thinking about them because they move the hell of a lot of sand when I had them in my early years when the LFS told me they stayed small. I wouldn't really get a crab and get rid of it without knowing someone that wanted one when it gets big. mine is not a dendro but its very close to care level.
This is a HUGE, wonderful thread with lots of ideas, but it is just too much to read from beginning to end. How can we get the best out of it?
Is there any way to organize the info coming from those with what seems like long-term success (maybe a year or more)? Something like a poll maybe (what you have, what you feed, how often you feed, target or not, lighting, current, size /type tank -softies/mixed, etc.) Even that list is getting big
Is there any way to organize the info coming from those with what seems like long-term success (maybe a year or more)? Something like a poll maybe (what you have, what you feed, how often you feed, target or not, lighting, current, size /type tank -softies/mixed, etc.) Even that list is getting big
Cody Ray
New member
A refugium full of calurpa under 24/7 lighting might help keep the oxygen levels up.
I may be way off base here, but wouldn't it be easy to keep nutrient levels stable if live phytoplankton was being added? It is an algae, so it is using nutrients and producing oxygen, and if a stable quantity of living phyto could be kept in the system, they should use about as much energy as what is being created. From what I have read, you need roughly 1 soda can worth of pure phyto to create adequate levels in every 30 gallons of water. It is much like feeding baby clowns, the saturation of baby brine shrimp needs to be high enough so that the clowns can find enough food with out exerting too much energy. If the amount of phyto needs to be high enough so that the coral isn't expending more energy than it is revieving. This is why I believe water temperature is important. The cooler the water, the less energy the coral is using, the lower the phyto saturation needs to be. If you were to just sit around all day, you wouldn't need as much food as someone who was running or working out all day.
In fact, if you could saturate the water beyond what the coral needed, it might start to grow faster and bud more often. Instead of trying to keep nutrient levels down, it might be easier to do large water changes everyday that are supersaturated with phyto. The water you remove will have uneaten and dead phyto along with nitrates, and the water you are adding will be full of phyto, just like the ocean. Just my .02 cents though
charles matthews
New member
dendros
dendros
I am currently constructing another system to try dendros again. This one will be a 55 over a 55 sump. The sump has a manifold with a 1200 gal/hr pump into a manifold under the sand bed, which will turn over for 1 hour every twelve hours. The sump will be lit 24 hrs. The upper tank will be on a slow flow return, will use a Turbelle 6200, a PVC platform for the dendros, and no substrate. I will be adding silica sand and aragonite "reef grade" and training the bed to grow a diatom film that will be resuspended every twelve hours. I'll add nutrients and silica (wataer glass or silica sand) until I have a stable population growth on the sand surface.
There are a number of interesting aspects to such a system. It should mimic the diurnal turnover of sand in the ocean. It would resuspend phytoplankton in high densities; and bacterial levels and celular debris/phospholipids will remain in suspension. It's even possible that the calcium and alkalinity needs will be met as the aragonite crystal surfaces will stay clean.
As I've noted before, this system uses the "luxury perfusion" technique of wastewater engineering. It should process nutrients extremely well, and lock them up in cells (both phyto and bacterial) which will be suspended, along with biofilm gums.
If the dendros die, I will back up and try adding a Deltec HOB skimmer and feeding golden pearls and live phyto.
Will keep temp at 76.
It should be an interesting experiment.
By the way, I find that target feeding oyster eggs causes the dendros to stay closed for longer. Heavy target phyto feeding may also make them stay closed longe. I suspect that they don't digest either well. They seem to respond best to golden pearls and some phyto to a light green tinge added to the water rather than spot feeding them (by which I mean that I can see aggressive feeding with a magnifying glass). It reminds me of the cough reflex with clams- they don't like excessive turbidity.
I also wonder about oxygen supersaturation and hypoxia- and other toxic stuff in the aquarium- keeping bacterial films from overgrowing, and entering toxic warfare, may be important; and overfeeding may lead to hypoxia and night; or they may be exquisitely sensitive to nitrates or to chloramine. It's hard to be convinced it's just the lack of food, when my Tubastrea is going great guns without target feeding. Of course, particle type is important- I've noticed that the dendros don't recognize detritus from the sponge or sand bed as much as they react to golden pearls. It's a clear difference. This also happens with the larged polyped Nephthygorgia- it loves golden pearls, but not detritus from the sponge or sand.
Will look up Zeo-vit and Delbeek's book.
Charles
dendros
I am currently constructing another system to try dendros again. This one will be a 55 over a 55 sump. The sump has a manifold with a 1200 gal/hr pump into a manifold under the sand bed, which will turn over for 1 hour every twelve hours. The sump will be lit 24 hrs. The upper tank will be on a slow flow return, will use a Turbelle 6200, a PVC platform for the dendros, and no substrate. I will be adding silica sand and aragonite "reef grade" and training the bed to grow a diatom film that will be resuspended every twelve hours. I'll add nutrients and silica (wataer glass or silica sand) until I have a stable population growth on the sand surface.
There are a number of interesting aspects to such a system. It should mimic the diurnal turnover of sand in the ocean. It would resuspend phytoplankton in high densities; and bacterial levels and celular debris/phospholipids will remain in suspension. It's even possible that the calcium and alkalinity needs will be met as the aragonite crystal surfaces will stay clean.
As I've noted before, this system uses the "luxury perfusion" technique of wastewater engineering. It should process nutrients extremely well, and lock them up in cells (both phyto and bacterial) which will be suspended, along with biofilm gums.
If the dendros die, I will back up and try adding a Deltec HOB skimmer and feeding golden pearls and live phyto.
Will keep temp at 76.
It should be an interesting experiment.
By the way, I find that target feeding oyster eggs causes the dendros to stay closed for longer. Heavy target phyto feeding may also make them stay closed longe. I suspect that they don't digest either well. They seem to respond best to golden pearls and some phyto to a light green tinge added to the water rather than spot feeding them (by which I mean that I can see aggressive feeding with a magnifying glass). It reminds me of the cough reflex with clams- they don't like excessive turbidity.
I also wonder about oxygen supersaturation and hypoxia- and other toxic stuff in the aquarium- keeping bacterial films from overgrowing, and entering toxic warfare, may be important; and overfeeding may lead to hypoxia and night; or they may be exquisitely sensitive to nitrates or to chloramine. It's hard to be convinced it's just the lack of food, when my Tubastrea is going great guns without target feeding. Of course, particle type is important- I've noticed that the dendros don't recognize detritus from the sponge or sand bed as much as they react to golden pearls. It's a clear difference. This also happens with the larged polyped Nephthygorgia- it loves golden pearls, but not detritus from the sponge or sand.
Will look up Zeo-vit and Delbeek's book.
Charles
Cody Ray
New member
Would love if you would provide some diagrams and more information on this, seems very interesting to me. My only question is on the phytoplankton and them using nutrients. If they are in the sand bed and forced out into the water, to me this would signal that they were dead, and that they wouldn't be absorbing nutrients. Correct me if I am wrong, but phyto is a free swimming organism, and if it were in some sort of non-suspended state I would think it was dead.
charles matthews
New member
Dendronepnthya study group
Dendronepnthya study group
The comments on this thread continue to add important information- I hope we will be moved to a forum at some point!
Some UNCONTROLLED guesses and observations:
1) When I kept multiple colonies for many months at a time, they seemed to do well, and then a wave of deaths would occur. One set of losses occurred when I added iron to the refugium. Now, I suspect that the problem may have been a negative reaction to benthic bacterial growth with all the feeding.
The aquaculture literature for shrimp growout may be relevant here. Shrimp larvae do better with a probiotic approach to their ponds. The difference seems dramatic- good enough for comercial shrimp farmers to buy the microbes. Is Vibrio poisoning our Dendros? I suspect so. This would also explain the preference for low temps. I think regular deep automated deep sand stirring, or the Zeovit method, with a probiotic additive, would be helpful to try. I am working with Epicore, a commercial shrimp grow supplier, using their probiotics and a liquid zoeal feed that can be metered. In shrimp culture, Vibrio is a major problem- and feeding zoeal shrimp is a very similar problem to keeping dendros.
2) I think dendros do MUCH better with a slow flow refugium attached, where you can see the oxygen bubbles. I suspect it's the oxygen, not the food.
3) Flow- they don't like turbulence. So putting them close to the OVERFLOW makes great sense. When I havae waves of deaths, the ones near overflows did the best. Water pushed out of a pump is impelled over the surface area of the blades; however, draining water is PUSHED over the entire surface of the aquarium. The water drawing toward the overflow is very free of turbulence. I think six inches/second is fine, some will take more.
Is anyone able to take videos of feeding behavior of dendros?
Dendronepnthya study group
The comments on this thread continue to add important information- I hope we will be moved to a forum at some point!
Some UNCONTROLLED guesses and observations:
1) When I kept multiple colonies for many months at a time, they seemed to do well, and then a wave of deaths would occur. One set of losses occurred when I added iron to the refugium. Now, I suspect that the problem may have been a negative reaction to benthic bacterial growth with all the feeding.
The aquaculture literature for shrimp growout may be relevant here. Shrimp larvae do better with a probiotic approach to their ponds. The difference seems dramatic- good enough for comercial shrimp farmers to buy the microbes. Is Vibrio poisoning our Dendros? I suspect so. This would also explain the preference for low temps. I think regular deep automated deep sand stirring, or the Zeovit method, with a probiotic additive, would be helpful to try. I am working with Epicore, a commercial shrimp grow supplier, using their probiotics and a liquid zoeal feed that can be metered. In shrimp culture, Vibrio is a major problem- and feeding zoeal shrimp is a very similar problem to keeping dendros.
2) I think dendros do MUCH better with a slow flow refugium attached, where you can see the oxygen bubbles. I suspect it's the oxygen, not the food.
3) Flow- they don't like turbulence. So putting them close to the OVERFLOW makes great sense. When I havae waves of deaths, the ones near overflows did the best. Water pushed out of a pump is impelled over the surface area of the blades; however, draining water is PUSHED over the entire surface of the aquarium. The water drawing toward the overflow is very free of turbulence. I think six inches/second is fine, some will take more.
Is anyone able to take videos of feeding behavior of dendros?
graveyardworm
Premium Member
Still here listening patiently, wondering how everyones dendros are doing that posted in the beginning of the thread. I have some ideas that I may try. Still working on setting up my new multitank system, my equipment/tank room is complete. 100 gal sump in place, just got my skimmer today lifereef 72" VS3 its huge. I should have everything set up and running in another month or so. I havent quite figured total system gals yet still toying with ideas, min 500 gal anyway.
I was thinking for dendro tank I would use something like a 20 long or custom tank (long and narrow) drilled on both ends for closed loop with large bulkheads so flow would be high with low velocity, connected into the larger system as follows: drain from 35 gal refugium ( SSB stirred daily, tumbling cheato ball, 24/7 lighting, drip fed from fresh phyto possibly up to 1 liter per day) in. Flow out would go to 100 gal 6' tank with DSB planted with seagrass. To get the cheato ball I'll be installing a ramp type set up I saw in Anthony Calfos forum I think this will also help to get more O2 into water column.
Just my initial thoughts, alot taken from posts here.
I was thinking for dendro tank I would use something like a 20 long or custom tank (long and narrow) drilled on both ends for closed loop with large bulkheads so flow would be high with low velocity, connected into the larger system as follows: drain from 35 gal refugium ( SSB stirred daily, tumbling cheato ball, 24/7 lighting, drip fed from fresh phyto possibly up to 1 liter per day) in. Flow out would go to 100 gal 6' tank with DSB planted with seagrass. To get the cheato ball I'll be installing a ramp type set up I saw in Anthony Calfos forum I think this will also help to get more O2 into water column.
Just my initial thoughts, alot taken from posts here.
charles matthews
New member
I was particularly interested in mcox33 and what her recent experiences have been?
Jens Kallmeyer
New member
d34532 said:
HI Lam
I see the Horseshoe crabs out here in the water at every dive, they are mostly in the range of 1 ft in length. Strangely I rarely see small ones.
I would not want to add anything in my tank that can grow to 1 ft, despite, Horseshoes are not considered reefsafe.
What do you mean by "Gobies eating the small stuff also"? Do you think that they would compete for the same food with the Dendros? I would doubt that, because the stuff at the bottom is not accessible for the Dendros anyways, only through the resuspension by the Gobies it will eventually reach the corals.
Best wishes
Jens
dannyfromholland
New member
In germany is a company that sells a "Dendro System" Maybe its worth trying.
http://www.faunamarin.de/produkte.php
http://www.faunamarin.de/produkte.php
firefish2020
New member
Actually those are not Dendros that you have Mary;
I originally IDd the coral as a "Purple dendronephthya", which I was reluctant to do at the time due to the fact that they are notorious for dying in captivity and have an intense need to be fed on a constant basis. However this one seemed to thrive and has moved into many tanks in the area. I can now say that this is not a nephthya at all but a "Purple Lemnalia" which is much easier to care for and is the reason it is still alive. My hopes of finding a healthy dendro candidate for propagation are once more down to zero.
I originally IDd the coral as a "Purple dendronephthya", which I was reluctant to do at the time due to the fact that they are notorious for dying in captivity and have an intense need to be fed on a constant basis. However this one seemed to thrive and has moved into many tanks in the area. I can now say that this is not a nephthya at all but a "Purple Lemnalia" which is much easier to care for and is the reason it is still alive. My hopes of finding a healthy dendro candidate for propagation are once more down to zero.
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I was at a local FS today and they had two of some sort of non photosynthetic coral I dont belive it was a dendro, but any way they had two and both were hosting little starfish. I've seen pictures online before but never in person.
I'd like to describe it maybe someone here has seen something similar. It was tree like with a thick white stalk about 5 inches tall only instead of small individual polyps throughout the branches it had large leaf like growths with polyps along the edges. Nothing pictured in Bornemans Corals comes close.
I've checked the photos at GARF.org and they dont have anything pictured that similar either, I would like to add here that the folks at GARF were able to keep Dendro and other non photosynthetic corals for a long period of time according to one of the GARF volunteers They lost most if not all in a system heater malfunction or something like that. They may be able to provide some insight into keeping them successfully. I think they had a tiered multitank system with lots of mud and fed there own recipe of phytoculture.
I'd like to describe it maybe someone here has seen something similar. It was tree like with a thick white stalk about 5 inches tall only instead of small individual polyps throughout the branches it had large leaf like growths with polyps along the edges. Nothing pictured in Bornemans Corals comes close.
I've checked the photos at GARF.org and they dont have anything pictured that similar either, I would like to add here that the folks at GARF were able to keep Dendro and other non photosynthetic corals for a long period of time according to one of the GARF volunteers They lost most if not all in a system heater malfunction or something like that. They may be able to provide some insight into keeping them successfully. I think they had a tiered multitank system with lots of mud and fed there own recipe of phytoculture.
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Thurge
New member
I appologise if this has been covered already in this topic (I printed it out to read at home) but I am having an issue with a Dendro I picked up this weekend. I need to attach it to a frag rock. It came just bairly attached to a rock and so far i have found out how NOT to attach them.
I found out that Superglue makes the base crumble like bread crumbs.
Then I found out that a Loose rubberband is still enough to cut the two pieces in half (tried rubberbanding inbetween tow heads not I have two seperate heads).
Soo what is the proper way of attaching these georgous corals to a rock?
I found out that Superglue makes the base crumble like bread crumbs.
Then I found out that a Loose rubberband is still enough to cut the two pieces in half (tried rubberbanding inbetween tow heads not I have two seperate heads).
Soo what is the proper way of attaching these georgous corals to a rock?
graveyardworm
Premium Member
Hi Thurge, I think the best suggested method so far is let it settle on the substrate in a low flow area, and if things go well it will attach itself, once it has attached to substrate you can glue the substrate to a rock. Unfortunately things arent going to well for this species in captivity hence this thread and hopefully a new forum. Could you describe your tank and equipment a little bit? Thanks
Jens Kallmeyer
New member
HI Thurge
You could try a strip cut out of a stocking, the material stretches and does not cut trough the coral but rather wraps around, plus it allows the water to circulate through. I haven't tried this with Dendros, but with several other soft corals (Lemnalia etc) and it worked quite well.
Good luck
Jens
You could try a strip cut out of a stocking, the material stretches and does not cut trough the coral but rather wraps around, plus it allows the water to circulate through. I haven't tried this with Dendros, but with several other soft corals (Lemnalia etc) and it worked quite well.
Good luck
Jens
Thurge
New member
Jens, I am not sure even that would work. Now that the rubberband cut the two heads appart the band isn't streched at all, its loosly looped around the rock.
From the reading, it does seem that just letting it lay may be the only thing to do. I will slip some larger rocks under where they are laying to make my life easier.
I didn't go into this totally blind, but I may very well have under estimated just how dificult they are. Then again Acropora's were "Expert Only" till people got them figured out...
Tank setup:
58 Oceanic display w/ roughly 25gal in the sump (with roughly 8 gallons as a fuge growing cheatomorpha; no filter sock, just a settling tank so the tank feeds the fuge)
return is a Dolphin 650 submersable, and the return is 3/4" Lockline that has two spliters giving three returns along the back with 1/2" outlets to equalize theoutflow amongst the three.
75# OF lr (Bali, Fiji, Alorha, Garf manmade)
3" sandbed in the tank of Caribsea Reef Sepecial Argonite
4" sandbed in the fuge of Ecosystem MiracleMud and Kents Oolitic sand
NO SKIMMER
3 steamer clams, 3 sponge encrusted Thorny Oystuers (Euroreef killed my first two), 2 Maxima, 1 Crocea
3 fairy wrasses, Bicolor Foxface 4", maroon clown 3", Pajama Cardinal, Watchman Gobie.
2 cleaner shrimp, fire shirmp, at least one Pistol shrimp (never see them just hear them), keyhole limpets, turbo nassarius and Astrae snails, monster yellow brittle star
grey barrel sponge, yellow Gorgonian, monster pipe organ, very happy RBTA (just wish it would split already), plus several other LPS and softie corals and feather dusters in the gravel.
20 gallon weekly WC
Tropic marin salt
80*
dose with Purple up and Argomilk every couple days.
Its a tank that would make a SPS freak have a breakdown but its not for SPS. Its nutrent rich but not out of hand, there isn't any visable cyano, and everything is happy and thriving. I tried a small piece of Dendro while I still had a skimmer on the tank and it just withered away. Its having the "clam filter", instead of the skimmer, that made me think that this time I may be more successful; Because of the nutrent rich water. I will also try attaching the smaller head up on the glass near the overflow lip for some more flow.
From the reading, it does seem that just letting it lay may be the only thing to do. I will slip some larger rocks under where they are laying to make my life easier.
I didn't go into this totally blind, but I may very well have under estimated just how dificult they are. Then again Acropora's were "Expert Only" till people got them figured out...
Tank setup:
58 Oceanic display w/ roughly 25gal in the sump (with roughly 8 gallons as a fuge growing cheatomorpha; no filter sock, just a settling tank so the tank feeds the fuge)
return is a Dolphin 650 submersable, and the return is 3/4" Lockline that has two spliters giving three returns along the back with 1/2" outlets to equalize theoutflow amongst the three.
75# OF lr (Bali, Fiji, Alorha, Garf manmade)
3" sandbed in the tank of Caribsea Reef Sepecial Argonite
4" sandbed in the fuge of Ecosystem MiracleMud and Kents Oolitic sand
NO SKIMMER
3 steamer clams, 3 sponge encrusted Thorny Oystuers (Euroreef killed my first two), 2 Maxima, 1 Crocea
3 fairy wrasses, Bicolor Foxface 4", maroon clown 3", Pajama Cardinal, Watchman Gobie.
2 cleaner shrimp, fire shirmp, at least one Pistol shrimp (never see them just hear them), keyhole limpets, turbo nassarius and Astrae snails, monster yellow brittle star
grey barrel sponge, yellow Gorgonian, monster pipe organ, very happy RBTA (just wish it would split already), plus several other LPS and softie corals and feather dusters in the gravel.
20 gallon weekly WC
Tropic marin salt
80*
dose with Purple up and Argomilk every couple days.
Its a tank that would make a SPS freak have a breakdown
but its not for SPS. Its nutrent rich but not out of hand, there isn't any visable cyano, and everything is happy and thriving. I tried a small piece of Dendro while I still had a skimmer on the tank and it just withered away. Its having the "clam filter", instead of the skimmer, that made me think that this time I may be more successful; Because of the nutrent rich water. I will also try attaching the smaller head up on the glass near the overflow lip for some more flow.
