New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

Neptune needs to be careful as many other controllers are coming onto the market and guys like Profilix are starting to get a small foot hold in the US. At MACNA it seemed like everyone was coming out with some form of controller. So while I see Neptunes need to diversify they risk abadoning a massive market slice they currently enjoy.

If I use your example it would be akin to the xbox one to suddenly decide that they will no longer support HD tvs and only the new 4K models will be supported. Or even worse that only MSFT 4K tvs would be supported (I know MSFT doesnt make TVs but just an example).

The better tie in to your analogy though is the fact that the Xbox one does not disallow you to use third party equipment (headsets, controlelrs, ect) and they all work with the system.
 
Is it? It's in my best interest, and presumably yours, but theirs? I'm not so sure. As the two companies move increasingly into direct competition (Neptune with powerheads and pumps; ETM with Reeflink and controllers) I think co-operation goes the way of the thylacine (was going to say 'Dodo', but everyone uses that analogy :)).

ETM statement seems pretty definitive.

Though I am not a 'gamer', my kids are, and I often use the analogy of the game consoles. They are largely not interoperable, and certain games are exclusive to one or the other. so, what do many folks do? They have both. It's inconvenient, but I know (because I am in the industry) that they have all done economic modeling that says its the best approach to maximize profits. Now, if consumer behavior should change, then the strategy may change; but for now, I cannot really fault either Neptune or ETM should they truly decide that cross-compatibility is not in their individual best interests.

Wow, hard to keep up with all this! Good posts.

I do think it is in the long term best interest for both companies. I remember all the companies with there own version of the desk top [personal] computer.
Atari, Comodore, Compaq, Texas Instruments and many many more. Most of these companies are no longer in the field, do other things, been swallowed by a bigger fish or no longer exist. There are basically two standards today for personal computers today that have wide spread use. Sony, a huge powerful company took it the shorts with BETAMAX video tape recorders.

Yes, everybody is comming out with there own controllers and some will try to make impossible to control other equipment or use another controller but most of those products will fail as users purchase products with the widest available options. I almost went with the Waveline Apex Ready Pump. If it had come to market a year earlier, I would have bought one. I am thinking they missed their wave with pumps such as Vetra and Cor coming to market.

RJ
 
The most interesting thing to me about Cor is that is resembled no other DC pump on the market that I've seen which I found very surprising. I will do some research when I get back from the show though. I expect it will have all the same features are the Vectra and hopefully be on par as far as quality. I also expect the'll have a larger model too and I did inquire but they wouldn't confirm or deny which wasn't surprising at this stage.

What I was excited most about is the flow sensor module which will operate independant of the Cor as a standalone Apex add on. I'd love to have some flow sensors on my reactors and display refugium feed. Heck, I'd love to have a flow sensor on my closed loop RD3 230 which feeds a UV filter but finding a salt water safe one in 1.5" or 2" that will work with the new module might be difficult. I had a conversation with Bill Wann about flow sensors and I'm not too optimistic about that due to the signal output of larger commercial grade sensors. If I want one for my big pump, I might have to go with a high end industrial one with a seperate monitor/display. He and I will be talking more about it after the show as he has some that I can play with.

Despite Neptunes entrance into the pump market, I hope that Ecotech moves forward & supports the WXM interface with the Vectra for those loyal Ecotech customers who want to control their pumps via the Apex. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they avoid that and as of now, Ectotech isn't sending out any good news. Then again there isn't bad news either so perhapds "no news is good news".

In my mind, there really isn't much advantage to Ecosmart live over Apex control other than some of the reporting features and perhaps ease of integration although Fusion certainly simplifies things vs creating several profiles which I'm extremely proficient at anyway.

Funny you mention Bill.. Coralvue contacted me about shooting some video of my tank yesterday and on the way they wanted to do some of Bill's and for the life of me I could not remember who he was. You just jogged my memory that is weird.

But anyway that would be awsum being able to use flow sensors in those situations with out a doubt and hooked up to a apex so you can see what is happening. That alone would be great and worth owning.

If it adjust the pumps though you wont actually know what is happening at those points anyway unless the pump is also reporting that is increasing output to adjust for those which I am sure it would.
 
How hot would you expect the M1 pump to run and what temp effect should it have on a 120g DT with 36g sump? It's an 80w pump.

As I posted earlier I used the M1 to run a Lifereef skimmer which replaced an Aquamaxx Q2 (Sicce pump 22w). Before the Aquamaxx I had an SRO 2000INT (Bubble Blaster 30w pump). I've never had a temp problem. I do now.

I typically keep my temp around 78-79F. In the summer my heater never turns on and I run the home A/C to keep the tank temp stable. A week before adding the M1 I increased the Radions from 45 to 60%. The increase in Radion intensity did not increase the temp that I noticed. When I added the M1 my temp started to rise up to 83F. I had been running the M1 at 100%. I lowered that to 60%. I have a canopy so to eliminate the Radions as a cause I put a fan in the canopy. That did help drop the temp about 2F. It would not drop below 80F however and that's when I knew it wasn't the Radions causing the temp increase.

I pulled out the Vectra M1 last night, shut off the canopy fan and within hours my temp dropped to 78F.

You can see from the graph where I added the fan and lowered the pump to 60% on Sept. 8 and where I pulled out the M1 last night.

vectratemp.jpg
 
As I posted earlier I used the M1 to run a Lifereef skimmer which replaced an Aquamaxx Q2 (Sicce pump 22w). Before the Aquamaxx I had an SRO 2000INT (Bubble Blaster 30w pump). I've never had a temp problem. I do now.

...When I added the M1 my temp started to rise up to 83F. I had been running the M1 at 100%. I lowered that to 60%.
vectratemp.jpg

Check the power that the M1 is consuming using ESL or a watt meter. You replaced a 22w pump with an 80w pump. The number of watts that the pump is consuming is the amount of power being dissipated as heat within the aquarium.
 
Guys, I thought I would drop in here and provide a little insight and clarification.

First off, when it comes to integrating with other products, it is absolutely our intention to do as much as we possibly can to make that happen. That is a strategic decision going forward even with the introduction of our own line of products. Unfortunately we cannot force other companies to come on board. Some simply make the strategic decision that it is not worth it, there is not enough resources in their company to do it, or they simply do not understand the value to the customer or their company. Often I will approach a company and ask them "why don't you make that Apex Ready™" and send them the info. That is about as far as I can take it. Our standards now for integration are basically 0-10V and RS232 (VDM). The ETM and AI stuff was all custom work. Each of those were a one-off, only done due to the sheer size of the market, and the engineering pay back was via a hardware option. Now with that being said...

A recent RB article listed that 84% of aquarium owners want to control their aquariums with a smart phone. 89% said they wanted to be able to have access to everything in one place, one app.

At MACNA, in my couple of appearances, I brought forward a new direction for us on the Apex Ready front to take it to the next level. As we push toward and into 2016 we realize that a new standard is necessary. We are calling it IoA or Internet of Aquariums™. Basically it is a communication protocol that we will give to equipment manufacturers that has categories of products in it that can be controlled over Ethernet (wi-fi or wired). We will begin with lighting of course but it should branch out from there depending on demand and need from the larger manufacturers. Now, for instance, if you are a lighting company with a wirelessly controlled light and native app, you can implement our standard into the light and the Apex and Apex Fusion interface will recognize it and control it. Now, the key here is that these companies have to be pushed (by you, not us) to do their part. Just like they are now on the current standards of 0-10v, etc. So, this is just one more way we are moving to expand the capabilities of the hardware you already own. No additional hardware would be required for this. Look for the first products using this standard in the coming months.

Some on the forums have made a comparison of us to Apple and being a closed shop. Glad they brought that up. There were two Apples when it came to integration with 3rd party products. In the 90s if you wanted your Mac to have a mouse, it had to come from Apple. Fast forward 10 years and they allowed interconnection to many other products - you could use a Logitech mouse. Now, would Apple have an advantage to creating a more integrated mouse for your computer than Logitech, Absolutely. Could they offer more to the consumer than Logitech - probably and likely. But ultimately there was still an integration possibility to a wide variety of products - so YOU have more choice! Now Apple makes headphones and integrates with all kinds of headphones, etc. If we wanted to stymie the growth of compatible products, why would we be continually adding powerheads and return pumps to the Apex Ready line up over the last few months while at the same time releasing the WAV and developing the COR?!

Finally on the Vectra integration to Apex w/ WXM. First of all there is no technical (hardware) reason our Apex with the WXM could not operate the Vectra. WE ARE READY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR YOU ASAP. The ball is completely in ETM court at this point. We have been talking to them at MACNA, have contacted them on our return, and await their response. We will let you all know more when we do.
 
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Check the power that the M1 is consuming using ESL or a watt meter. You replaced a 22w pump with an 80w pump. The number of watts that the pump is consuming is the amount of power being dissipated as heat within the aquarium.

Will do. I have a P3 Kill A Watt. I also have ESL which my Vectra, Radions, and Vortechs are connected. Where do I find the consumed wattage?

No question I'm consuming more watts than before. I'm curious as to how many at 60%. I'd guess around 50w. Is 50w enough to increase water temp by 3-4F?

Thanks
 
Terrence

Thank you for your clarification and I look forward to further developments. We need good high end CONTROLLABLE American pumps with great product support and there is room for more than one or two builders of such pumps. Lastly, I look forward to flow metering and very happy you made it a stand alone product. It a good time to be an aquarist!

RJ
 
...... and the gauntlet has been thrown :lol:

PS - as a colleague of mine always says, 'the wonderful thing about standards is there's so many to choose from'.
 
Guys, I thought I would drop in here and provide a little insight and clarification.

First off, when it comes to integrating with other products, it is absolutely our intention to do as much as we possibly can to make that happen. That is a strategic decision going forward even with the introduction of our own line of products. Unfortunately we cannot force other companies to come on board. Some simply make the strategic decision that it is not worth it, there is not enough resources in their company to do it, or they simply do not understand the value to the customer or their company. Often I will approach a company and ask them "why don't you make that Apex Ready" and send them the info. That is about as far as I can take it. Our standards now for integration are basically 0-10V and RS232 (VDM). The ETM and AI stuff was all custom work. Each of those were a one-off, only done due to the sheer size of the market, and the engineering pay back was via a hardware option. Now with that being said...

A recent RB article listed that 84% of aquarium owners want to control their aquariums with a smart phone. 89% said they wanted to be able to have access to everything in one place, one app.

At MACNA, in my couple of appearances, I brought forward a new direction for us on the Apex Ready front to take it to the next level. As we push toward and into 2016 we realize that a new standard is necessary. We are calling it IoA or Internet of Aquariums. Basically it is a communication protocol that we will give to equipment manufacturers that has categories of products in it that can be controlled over Ethernet (wi-fi or wired). We will begin with lighting of course but it should branch out from there depending on demand and need from the larger manufacturers. Now, for instance, if you are a lighting company with a wirelessly controlled light and native app, you can implement our standard into the light and the Apex and Apex Fusion interface will recognize it and control it. Now, the key here is that these companies have to be pushed (by you, not us) to do their part. Just like they are now on the current standards of 0-10v, etc. So, this is just one more way we are moving to expand the capabilities of the hardware you already own. No additional hardware would be required for this. Look for the first products using this standard in the coming months.

Some on the forums have made a comparison of us to Apple and being a closed shop. Glad they brought that up. There were two Apples when it came to integration with 3rd party products. In the 90s if you wanted your Mac to have a mouse, it had to come from Apple. Fast forward 10 years and they allowed interconnection to many other products - you could use a Logitech mouse. Now, would Apple have an advantage to creating a more integrated mouse for your computer than Logitech, Absolutely. Could they offer more to the consumer than Logitech - probably and likely. But ultimately there was still an integration possibility to a wide variety of products - so YOU have more choice! Now Apple makes headphones and integrates with all kinds of headphones, etc. If we wanted to stymie the growth of compatible products, why would we be continually adding powerheads and return pumps to the Apex Ready line up over the last few months while at the same time releasing the WAV and developing the COR?!

Finally on the Vectra integration to Apex w/ WXM. First of all there is no technical (hardware) reason our Apex with the WXM could not operate the Vectra. WE ARE READY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR YOU ASAP. The ball is completely in ETM court at this point. We have been talking to them at MACNA, have contacted them on our return, and await their response. We will let you all know more when we do.


Its a hard situation you got there moving into the equipment business. You no longer just make a controller and modules to use others equipment. So you put other manufacturers in a spot because now your a competitor to them. When you were just a controller company you would have gladly made a module that you could make money on for a large selling product. Things have been easier because DA really lost market share and really aint another major controller out there. By doing so it could give rise to another controller that is more willing to work with the manufactures.. Even just by giving them use of control through 0-10v but it also needs to be built into the apex software to take control of their functions of this equipment. It also needs to be built into fusion..

I just think you guys are big enough that a majority of the manufacturers may do this themselves but by becoming a competitor they dont want too.. That is the situation that ultimately developers.

I am not bashing you guys in away or your business model it just puts you different situation once you become a competitor to those that might want to have their product controlled by Apex.
 
FWIW, 'smart' products are absolutely the way of the future. I'm a long time home audio guy, and recall when a firmware update required either a return for service or a mailed disc. Now it's done automatically over the Internet. I'd fully expect a networkable tank sooner rather than later with complete remote control. It's just a matter of differentiating the 'car' from the 'road network'. The former can (and is) proprietary, but the latter is not, and should not be.
 
Guys, I thought I would drop in here and provide a little insight and clarification.

First off, when it comes to integrating with other products, it is absolutely our intention to do as much as we possibly can to make that happen. That is a strategic decision going forward even with the introduction of our own line of products. Unfortunately we cannot force other companies to come on board. Some simply make the strategic decision that it is not worth it, there is not enough resources in their company to do it, or they simply do not understand the value to the customer or their company. Often I will approach a company and ask them "why don't you make that Apex Readyâ„¢" and send them the info. That is about as far as I can take it. Our standards now for integration are basically 0-10V and RS232 (VDM). The ETM and AI stuff was all custom work. Each of those were a one-off, only done due to the sheer size of the market, and the engineering pay back was via a hardware option. Now with that being said...

A recent RB article listed that 84% of aquarium owners want to control their aquariums with a smart phone. 89% said they wanted to be able to have access to everything in one place, one app.

At MACNA, in my couple of appearances, I brought forward a new direction for us on the Apex Ready front to take it to the next level. As we push toward and into 2016 we realize that a new standard is necessary. We are calling it IoA or Internet of Aquariumsâ„¢. Basically it is a communication protocol that we will give to equipment manufacturers that has categories of products in it that can be controlled over Ethernet (wi-fi or wired). We will begin with lighting of course but it should branch out from there depending on demand and need from the larger manufacturers. Now, for instance, if you are a lighting company with a wirelessly controlled light and native app, you can implement our standard into the light and the Apex and Apex Fusion interface will recognize it and control it. Now, the key here is that these companies have to be pushed (by you, not us) to do their part. Just like they are now on the current standards of 0-10v, etc. So, this is just one more way we are moving to expand the capabilities of the hardware you already own. No additional hardware would be required for this. Look for the first products using this standard in the coming months.

Some on the forums have made a comparison of us to Apple and being a closed shop. Glad they brought that up. There were two Apples when it came to integration with 3rd party products. In the 90s if you wanted your Mac to have a mouse, it had to come from Apple. Fast forward 10 years and they allowed interconnection to many other products - you could use a Logitech mouse. Now, would Apple have an advantage to creating a more integrated mouse for your computer than Logitech, Absolutely. Could they offer more to the consumer than Logitech - probably and likely. But ultimately there was still an integration possibility to a wide variety of products - so YOU have more choice! Now Apple makes headphones and integrates with all kinds of headphones, etc. If we wanted to stymie the growth of compatible products, why would we be continually adding powerheads and return pumps to the Apex Ready line up over the last few months while at the same time releasing the WAV and developing the COR?!

Finally on the Vectra integration to Apex w/ WXM. First of all there is no technical (hardware) reason our Apex with the WXM could not operate the Vectra. WE ARE READY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR YOU ASAP. The ball is completely in ETM court at this point. We have been talking to them at MACNA, have contacted them on our return, and await their response. We will let you all know more when we do.

Does that mean other controllers integrate with all your hardware? Forgive my ignorance if that's a current capability of other controllers. I currently own two Apex, quite a bit of your hardware, but I also own a Reeflink and quite a bit of Ecotech hardware. I know it's not possible with Reeflink and ESL, but maybe that's because Ecotech wants it that way. There are other controllers out there however which this could be applicable.
 
What does it say on your P3?


Will do. I have a P3 Kill A Watt. I also have ESL which my Vectra, Radions, and Vortechs are connected. Where do I find the consumed wattage?

No question I'm consuming more watts than before. I'm curious as to how many at 60%. I'd guess around 50w. Is 50w enough to increase water temp by 3-4F?

Thanks
 
Terrance- if you are so enthusiastic about everyone's products being able to be controlled on a level playing field, why are your products only able to function with an Apex? It does not seem fair. Can you plug a Wav or Cor into ESL?

It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Any thoughts?
 
Terrance- if you are so enthusiastic about everyone's products being able to be controlled on a level playing field, why are your products only able to function with an Apex? It does not seem fair. Can you plug a Wav or Cor into ESL?

It seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Any thoughts?

My, my, my. And you wonder why we do not see more participation from leadership of major aquarium companies around here.

Today we had two participate in this thread. I do not think either wanted to engage in debate but merely assist us in understanding events surrounding their products. Terence F. does not need defenders and that is not my purpose. I appreciate him taking time to make a statement about Neptune products and his take on the direction this small industry is going. I applaud the idea of a common language standard to allow control by all systems. I imagine Neptune products such as Wave to have backward compatibility after a hardware/ software update. I have mentioned in this same thread my concern about each company developing the own proprietary control system. Terrance was giving us Neptune's position. And yes, it would not surprise me that Neptune's newer products Wave, Dos would eventually be controlled through other's controll systems.

Hospitality is in short supply these days. Snark a common currency.

RJ
 
My, my, my. And you wonder why we do not see more participation from leadership of major aquarium companies around here.

Today we had two participate in this thread. I do not think either wanted to engage in debate but merely assist us in understanding events surrounding their products. Terence F. does not need defenders and that is not my purpose. I appreciate him taking time to make a statement about Neptune products and his take on the direction this small industry is going. I applaud the idea of a common language standard to allow control by all systems. I imagine Neptune products such as Wave to have backward compatibility after a hardware/ software update. I have mentioned in this same thread my concern about each company developing the own proprietary control system. Terrance was giving us Neptune's position. And yes, it would not surprise me that Neptune's newer products Wave, Dos would eventually be controlled through other's controll systems.

Hospitality is in short supply these days. Snark a common currency.

RJ

I actually own 2 Apex's and control 6 other tanks which are all on my Fusion account so it is not like I am just sitting idle by as two companies duke it out. It was not meant of snarky but I still stand by it. I would be shocked if Wav, Cor and Dos would have the ability to go on ESL at any point in the future. From where I sit we are heading to closed proprietary equipment and software. Does anyone else see it differently?
 
I am not anyone else but I will stand down after this short post script.

I actually own 2 Apex's and control 6 other tanks which are all on my Fusion account so it is not like I am just sitting idle by as two companies duke it out. It was not meant of snarky but I still stand by it. I would be shocked if Wav, Cor and Dos would have the ability to go on ESL at any point in the future. From where I sit we are heading to closed proprietary equipment and software. Does anyone else see it differently?

Terrance mentioned all Neptune products use only 0-10 volt and RS-232, a very old and STANDARD computer communication/ control system. These standards are well know and reproducible by anyone. Whether there is the will to do so probably depends how well these products sell but, if we take Terrance at his word, control programs can be duplicated by others. Thus, if Echo Tech wanted to do so, I am sure they could.

It okay to question, to learn. My offense was how you said, not what you said.

RJ
 
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