New Mangroves Turning Black

[rwhhunt]

I have been working on making a terrarium style brackish set up out of a 20G long tank on my kitchen counter for a few months now... The tank has been running for about three months, and I recently (2 wks ago) added another 15 lbs of aragonite totaling about 20 lbs. I have a 15W NO 50/50 bulb over the "fish part of the tank" for around 24" of the tank's length; this section has a shallower sandbed of ~1", while the other 6" of the tank's length close to the filter has about a 3-4" sand bed. I installed a custom cut eggcrate to fit over the tank, and I ordered 10 mangrove propagules ranging from 9-12" from Hawaii on ebay. The progagules have about 0-2 leaves on them, and all have roots. I only put 9 in b/c one was too small to reach up to the eggcrate. They were shipped in a box with wet paper towels, and were 2nd dayed I believe. Upon recieving them, I began acclimating to my water over a two day period in a 1G fishbowl, by adding/misting freshwater initially, and slowly pouring tank water and RO water in the bowl till the desired SG was reached. I bought a 60W "Spot-Gro" bulb from Lowes and have it hanging in a ballast about 18-20" from the leaves. The tank water level is about 2-3" below the top, and the roots are resting and some buried with some sand. I mist them a couple times a day, but only when the overhead lights are off. Anyways, after the second day in the tank I am noticing about half of their leaves are turning black, my photoperiod is about 7-8 hours, a day, and I moved the overhead light from 12" up to the current 18-20". (my roomate may have misted them w/ the lights on the first day, but I have informed them that they may be bad b/c of the light amplification...)

The root structures are decent, each ones has about 3-5 roots ranging from 1"-6". The filter return is right by the middle of the cluster, so they have a decent water movement. (BTW the SG is at 1.021)

I also just installed a ultrasonic fogger late last night, but it has only been used for less than twenty minutes last night, and dont believe it is causing in damage-(although I am a little concerned that the fog may deposit excess salt on the leaves...) does anyone have any experience with foggers and mangroves??

What generally causes the leaves to turn black like this? acclimation, lighting ???? Is there anything I can do?

I will post pics of the setup, and close ups of the leaves later tonight when I get home...

 

[Triterium]

It sounds like the roots are not taking up water. Are the stems of the plants rigid or soft and wrinkled?

Dont worry about misting the leaves so much and dont worry about misting with the lights on. These plants grow in full sun and a 60 watt bulb over 1' above the leaves is not going to hurt them. Ive had them 8" from a 175 watt MH.

Explain what the roots look like. Heathy roots will have red and white tips. If the roots are all brown then they may not be uptaking water.

I doubt the fogger is causing any harm. I have never misted my mangrove leaves and they grow fine (many have gone from 2 to 50+ leaves in under a year).

You may have just bought some poor quality mangroves. Try www.banana-tree.com. I bet they are cheaper than what you paid. I usually have >95% success rate with the plants i buy there.

 

[Triterium]

I rarely hear of mangroves die when they are planted in the correct type of substrate. I prefer 4"+ of fine sand (add some garden soil if you dare or maybe some miracle mud, although i havent tried that). Most mangroves die when they are left in the water column. Im not sure why that is. Perhaps it has something to do with nutrients accumulating in the sand bed. Or perhaps because of better support/growth environment for the roots.

 

[rwhhunt]

That is an awesome website! I am defintily order from them in the future, how is shipping, i asuume it is foreign? Prices look nice!
So here is my tank months ago, when i first set it up:

it took a few months till I had more cash to finish the conversion:

Here are some of the leaves from the plants, you can see the darkness where they've burned, my horticulture friend mentioned that black leaves are common during alkaline burn... but the degradation has subsided since the past couple days...

Here is the root system, I am thinking I want to put another 15lbs of live sand in there as well...

(BTW, the fogger has a cool red LED that looks really cool with the lights off)

 

[Triterium]

Shipping isn't too bad. I think it was under $15 for 100 of them. They ship from PA.

Are the leaves crispy in the black areas?

It may have something to do with low nutrients or the substrate. I have never really tried aragonite but i feel like it may not be the best substrate. Perhaps you can use some oolitic sand and place some fertilizer tabs at the bottom and cover it all with aragonite. That's what i would do anyways...

BTW, that is a great looking system! i love the fogger!

 

[rwhhunt]

The black parts are tougher than the rest, but the green parts are still feeling smooth and pliable... I was thinking some live sand would be good, but what is oolitic? and where can I find it??

 

[rwhhunt]

BTW: I tried to cover up all that ugly blue rocks, but the hermits dug them up! I think I am going o manually grab the majority of them, and cover the rest with live sand or maybe that oolitic stuff....

 

[quack]

in the aquarium i find them s/w difficult to grow . . . and they hate to be moved!!!

 

[The_Nexis_One]

I agree with Quack - they do hate to be moved.

The darkening/of the leaves is the leaf dying. Most likely trasplant shock. Leaf dropping is common in many plant species as a reaction to environmental shock.

My main consern is the roots. I've never seen roots white like that. They should be red and hairy. Yours don't appear to have any fine roots which are used for uptake of water/nutriants. It also looks like there is some root die off. IMHO, the leaf die-back is because of the root damage. Not sure what is going on with the roots - I've not seen that before. It's like something stripped the fine hair like roots and the red skin off the roots.

I don't have a digital camera (stolen end of last year) otherwise I'd get a pic of my roots.

I'd call the provider and ask what conditions they were raised in... see what you can do to keep these alive.

Best of luck,
John.

 

[Triterium]

The white roots is a good sign. That how mine look before i plant them. Once they turn brown then you are in trouble. They just need some good substrate and they will strart growing in no time. I loose a lot of my mangroves that i dont plant in the substrate.

 

[rwhhunt]

I just added 10 lbs of bioactive fine live sand, and made sure to put a nice layer by the roots, so now there is about ~30 lbs of sand in the tank, i hope the sand will have some nutrients in it, there are also a Green spotted puffer, and archer in the tank, that usually eat pretty well, so there should be some nitrates as well...

 

[quack]

i used crushed coral for my substrate . . maybe i should have used sand as cc does harden

 

[Triterium]

If all the leaves fall off, dont worry. That happens sometimes when they are acclimating to the new environment.

 

[rwhhunt]

One of the propagules with nice roots, lost its whole sprout (my fault, I broke it when taking it out of the packaging), if these black leaves fall, is there still a chance they will regnerate?? they all seem to have a new a new sprout coming up between the leaves...

 

[The_Nexis_One]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6641144#post6641144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Triterium
The white roots is a good sign. That how mine look before i plant them. Once they turn brown then you are in trouble.

I guess that's what I get for always rooting my own. My roots are 'always' deep red/burgandy with lighter or darker color tips. Although some of the fine hair roots are light colored, but not white in my estimation. Can't say I've ever seen white roots on Rhizophora mangle. Now i'm glad I saw this before my first order of 'rooted' mangroves - I'd probably stroke if they all came in with baren white roots

Keep us posted as to how they are doing. Hopefully those nice full buds on the ends will open up with some fresh leaves and they'll take off with growth.

John.

 

[rwhhunt]

Thanks! You guys have been a great help! I will keep you updated on the progress

 

[mcox33]

Black leaves could also mean, there is not enough nutrients in the water. I had 3 in my moderately stocked 90 gallon. In the sump.

About a week after I put them in the sump, I noticed one had leaves starting to turn black and another had totally black leaves. I took out the one that had totally black leaves. The other one has a black spot on the side of one of the leaves but seems to be growning fine now.

It could be to many mangroves or not enough nutrients in 1 tank.

The one with totally black leaves sprouted new leaves.

 

[Triterium]

Yep those roots look pretty typical of rooted plants ive recieved from banana-tree.

Here are some roots that are healthy. Many have red tips

 

[rwhhunt]

Wow! That is a very dense root structure! I hope that they will start expanding their roots.. How fast do these guys grow??? Does it depend directly on light, nutrients, or both?? Is my 60W spot-gro bulb too weak, or maybe too far away? I am on a 7-8 hour cycle that I am going to slowly move up to 10-12 hours, and maybe move the lamp back down to around 12-14" above the leaves..

 

[Triterium]

I would say the 60W bulb will not provide optimal growth but will work. Id say the closer to natural sunlight you can provide the better.

They can grow pretty fast, but they are demanding to get that kind of growth.

here are some growth pictures of mine...

May 1, 2005

October 11, 2005
All the new plants were added in late July

January 7, 2006
Largest plants are over 24", have 5-7 branches and over 50 leaves