NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6470476#post6470476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aqua_obs
jacmyoung, your tank will over flow and you will get water on the floor. It probably won't be related to this issue though! Seems like water absolutely has to get on the floor some how with these things... ask my carpet!
Oh yeah, I do get water drops on the carpet from time to time while I work around the tanks, if that is what you were referring to. I wouldn't call that overflow though.
I can also see one of those days when the stars all lined up, I could knock a bucket full of saltwater onto my carpet, but I still refuse to call that overflow
Silverfish
New member
silent tanks....
silent tanks....
Hey all.. I bought a tank before christmas, set it up, and was ASTONISHED :eek1: at the amount of noise that it made! Since setup, it has been a constant source of stress for both myself and hubby, since we are in a small condo that reverberates sound... Anyway, I stumbled across this thread along my quest for a silent sump, and the theory seemed sound, so after many unsucessful trips to home depot, I decided to try it...
The problem that I have with my setup, is that I have only one drain hole into my sump..... Of course, this poses a major problem, cause as this thread states, the silent overflow only works when one has two drains into the sump to allow for the emergency overflow. (and of course there were signs all over the overflow box saying "tempered glass do not drill") Argh.:mad2:
So of course, I recognised that by using this system, it will be inherently unstable, and I had to make allowances for this.
I thought I would post my solutions and observations, though they are by no means new, it might help those people in my boat, who only have one drain hole into thier sump.
I went and bought a ball valve from home depot, and plumbed it into the sump return, and dialed it in. I also took the durso standpipe that the tank came with, and modified it so the top of the standpipe was a straight shaft with a PVC screen at the top. (allowing water in, but nothing else bigger than the tip of my pinky finger)
WOW!. the sump crashing noise immediately stopped, and all that I could hear was a faint trickling of water at the top of the bulkhead as the water fell to the level of the standpipe. (and my noisy pump, but that is another story...)
Great.
Mission one was accomplished.
OK, mission two:
I know there has been a TONNE of recent debate regarding the inherent instability of this method- creating a siphon drain versus an air sucking drain: the siphon is very dependant on water levels in the sump, and minute changes can create fluctuations in the siphon strength, therefore can lead to the tank overflowing quickly, and unexpectedly. I think that the chances of the drain actually being clogged are quite minute, and this isn't as much of an issue as water level fluctuations, so that was the next issue I had to address: what to do for a backup system in case of water fluctuation overflowing the display tank:
In this area I happened to luck out with my sump design: I bought a sump with an enclosed overflow, that works (I think) as a baffle, and therefore the water level in this portion of the sump never fluctuates. The sump also has a smaller chamber that houses the pump: which means that in the event of a drain clog, the pump will only pump a small amount of water back up to the tank before it starts to run dry- therefore the tank will never overflow (I checked it a few times, some on purpose and a few by mistake, and this is what happens: Close the ball valve... the pump continues to suck water up to the tank, but runs dry before the display overflows... great! So I have a "spill proof sump" as was talked about earlier. so the only problems I have worst case scenario, is that I burn out my pump and all my poor fishies die.
This wasn't good enough for me, so I went to the local fish store and bought a float valve.
The float valve served to turn off the pump as soon as the water in the sump reached a certain low level, therefore my pump will turn itself off before it burns out...
So, even though this system is still not as ideal as the original one on this thread, it still works very well, and appears to be almost totally safe... As mentioned elsewhere- to reduce the chance of any problems longterm while on vacation, I will simply open the valve, as noise isn't an issue while on vacation
essentially I have solved to the best of my ability the following problems with my limited sump:
1. noise
2. inherent dangers of display overflow
3. pump burnout
4. fish dying as result of pump not working.
By fluke, this actually serves to work as an alarm system too... The majority of water fluctualtions are minor, but are more likely than a complete clog of the drain from the tank: if the water ever fluctuates so much that the pump flow overtakes the drain flow, then the pump turns off, then the siphon slowly continues to siphon, so the pump then turns back on, etc... etc... and the pump ends up turning on/off/on again, signalling a problem...also, some water still flows through the system, and though not ideally at full flow, the fish are much less likely to die as a result of a burnt out pump. There are a few other issues I am still working on, and they are as follows:
1. The PVC ball valve isn't that great. currently I have a gate valve from www.usplastic.com on order, as they ship to canada, and I can't find one hardware store in all of canada that carries PVC gate valves for less then 70$ canadian...
2. NOW my PUMP is loud lol.... since it isn't muffled by crashing sump and drainage noises... Still working on that... I ordered soundproofing material from an online soundproofing company (once again there are none apparrently in canada) and it is being shipped as I type, so I will provide an update on that if anyone needs one
3. Whenever I turn off the pump and allow the bulkhead to drain, it changes the pressure in the siphon drain- or maybe the siphon has to be kick started, whatever. Anyway, the pump is always stronger then the siphon when I turn on the pump again, therefore I have tested the overflow theory a few times before I learned that I have to reopen the drain valve and reset it after stopping the pump for any reason.
(another reason why I am buying a gate valve, so this isn't as much of a pain in the a$$)
other than that, I haven't had to readjust the valve for any other reason, though it has only been running this way for 1-2 weeks...
Sorry for the long post all. I know there are some out there who would disagree with the methods I used, but I had to make do with what I had, and this might help others who aren't in a position to go buy a new sump....
I am almost totally happy with the setup... just want the pump quieter!
thanks all....
silent tanks....
Hey all.. I bought a tank before christmas, set it up, and was ASTONISHED :eek1: at the amount of noise that it made! Since setup, it has been a constant source of stress for both myself and hubby, since we are in a small condo that reverberates sound... Anyway, I stumbled across this thread along my quest for a silent sump, and the theory seemed sound, so after many unsucessful trips to home depot, I decided to try it...
The problem that I have with my setup, is that I have only one drain hole into my sump..... Of course, this poses a major problem, cause as this thread states, the silent overflow only works when one has two drains into the sump to allow for the emergency overflow. (and of course there were signs all over the overflow box saying "tempered glass do not drill") Argh.:mad2:
So of course, I recognised that by using this system, it will be inherently unstable, and I had to make allowances for this.
I thought I would post my solutions and observations, though they are by no means new, it might help those people in my boat, who only have one drain hole into thier sump.
I went and bought a ball valve from home depot, and plumbed it into the sump return, and dialed it in. I also took the durso standpipe that the tank came with, and modified it so the top of the standpipe was a straight shaft with a PVC screen at the top. (allowing water in, but nothing else bigger than the tip of my pinky finger)
WOW!. the sump crashing noise immediately stopped, and all that I could hear was a faint trickling of water at the top of the bulkhead as the water fell to the level of the standpipe. (and my noisy pump, but that is another story...)
Great.
Mission one was accomplished.OK, mission two:
I know there has been a TONNE of recent debate regarding the inherent instability of this method- creating a siphon drain versus an air sucking drain: the siphon is very dependant on water levels in the sump, and minute changes can create fluctuations in the siphon strength, therefore can lead to the tank overflowing quickly, and unexpectedly. I think that the chances of the drain actually being clogged are quite minute, and this isn't as much of an issue as water level fluctuations, so that was the next issue I had to address: what to do for a backup system in case of water fluctuation overflowing the display tank:
In this area I happened to luck out with my sump design: I bought a sump with an enclosed overflow, that works (I think) as a baffle, and therefore the water level in this portion of the sump never fluctuates. The sump also has a smaller chamber that houses the pump: which means that in the event of a drain clog, the pump will only pump a small amount of water back up to the tank before it starts to run dry- therefore the tank will never overflow (I checked it a few times, some on purpose and a few by mistake
, and this is what happens: Close the ball valve... the pump continues to suck water up to the tank, but runs dry before the display overflows... great! So I have a "spill proof sump" as was talked about earlier. so the only problems I have worst case scenario, is that I burn out my pump and all my poor fishies die. This wasn't good enough for me, so I went to the local fish store and bought a float valve.
The float valve served to turn off the pump as soon as the water in the sump reached a certain low level, therefore my pump will turn itself off before it burns out...
So, even though this system is still not as ideal as the original one on this thread, it still works very well, and appears to be almost totally safe... As mentioned elsewhere- to reduce the chance of any problems longterm while on vacation, I will simply open the valve, as noise isn't an issue while on vacation
essentially I have solved to the best of my ability the following problems with my limited sump:
1. noise
2. inherent dangers of display overflow
3. pump burnout
4. fish dying as result of pump not working.
By fluke, this actually serves to work as an alarm system too... The majority of water fluctualtions are minor, but are more likely than a complete clog of the drain from the tank: if the water ever fluctuates so much that the pump flow overtakes the drain flow, then the pump turns off, then the siphon slowly continues to siphon, so the pump then turns back on, etc... etc... and the pump ends up turning on/off/on again, signalling a problem...also, some water still flows through the system, and though not ideally at full flow, the fish are much less likely to die as a result of a burnt out pump. There are a few other issues I am still working on, and they are as follows:
1. The PVC ball valve isn't that great. currently I have a gate valve from www.usplastic.com on order, as they ship to canada, and I can't find one hardware store in all of canada that carries PVC gate valves for less then 70$ canadian...
2. NOW my PUMP is loud lol.... since it isn't muffled by crashing sump and drainage noises... Still working on that... I ordered soundproofing material from an online soundproofing company (once again there are none apparrently in canada) and it is being shipped as I type, so I will provide an update on that if anyone needs one
3. Whenever I turn off the pump and allow the bulkhead to drain, it changes the pressure in the siphon drain- or maybe the siphon has to be kick started, whatever. Anyway, the pump is always stronger then the siphon when I turn on the pump again, therefore I have tested the overflow theory a few times before I learned that I have to reopen the drain valve and reset it after stopping the pump for any reason.
(another reason why I am buying a gate valve, so this isn't as much of a pain in the a$$)
other than that, I haven't had to readjust the valve for any other reason, though it has only been running this way for 1-2 weeks...
Sorry for the long post all. I know there are some out there who would disagree with the methods I used, but I had to make do with what I had, and this might help others who aren't in a position to go buy a new sump....
I am almost totally happy with the setup... just want the pump quieter!
thanks all....
Regarding the loud pump, is it external or submersible?
I have an external pump that I use for my Closed Loop, which is inside my cabinet. I quieted it down by putting some soundproofing foam around it:
The noise was mostly from the cooling fan at the back of the pump, echoing off the inside of the cabinet. The foam basically absorbs most of that sound. So when I close the doors to the cabinet (which does not have an open back), most of the noise is muffled. I also put weatherstripping around all the doors, so that it makes a nice seal when the doors are closed. There are several holes at the back for the plumbing, so that's sufficent for circulation.
Oh, I also suspended the pump from a hook inside the cabinet, with a large zip-tie. I had it screwed into the cabinet before, and that caused a lot of vibration noise too.
I had bought Soundproofing material before (similar to Dynamat for cars), for my computer tower before (back in my case modding days). In my experience, it doesnt really do too much. I'm sure you've seen the demonstration of two service bells on a counter, one with a little patch of sound deadening material stuck to it. In that type of setup where there are vibrations on an enclosed surface, it would make a difference. But within a cabinet or on an external pump, I dont think it will affect the mechanical vibration that much.
I have an external pump that I use for my Closed Loop, which is inside my cabinet. I quieted it down by putting some soundproofing foam around it:
The noise was mostly from the cooling fan at the back of the pump, echoing off the inside of the cabinet. The foam basically absorbs most of that sound. So when I close the doors to the cabinet (which does not have an open back), most of the noise is muffled. I also put weatherstripping around all the doors, so that it makes a nice seal when the doors are closed. There are several holes at the back for the plumbing, so that's sufficent for circulation.
Oh, I also suspended the pump from a hook inside the cabinet, with a large zip-tie. I had it screwed into the cabinet before, and that caused a lot of vibration noise too.
I had bought Soundproofing material before (similar to Dynamat for cars), for my computer tower before (back in my case modding days). In my experience, it doesnt really do too much. I'm sure you've seen the demonstration of two service bells on a counter, one with a little patch of sound deadening material stuck to it. In that type of setup where there are vibrations on an enclosed surface, it would make a difference. But within a cabinet or on an external pump, I dont think it will affect the mechanical vibration that much.
rdmpe
New member
Hi Silverfish, it sounds like you came up with a good solution given your situation. Worst case is you could loose your pump if the float switch fails - as long as you test it once in a while you'll probably be fine! I have heard that the Velocity pumps are pretty much silent but add a significant amount of heat to the water. I know the Sequence Dart pumps are very quiet, but they would be too much flow for your situation. I guess you've already sat the pump on some rubber or foam padding? Do you have it plumbed with spaflex? That will reduce the vibrations being carried through the plumbing.
Hey GMGQ, how long have you had your stand sealed up like that? Are you worried about mold or anything due to the heat and humidity that builds up in there? Will that padding make your pump motor run too hot?
Hey GMGQ, how long have you had your stand sealed up like that? Are you worried about mold or anything due to the heat and humidity that builds up in there? Will that padding make your pump motor run too hot?
Silverfish, finally I am not alone on this setup! I have been told I WILL have an overflow, but no one would believe me when I said my tank will not overflow.
The chance of the pump running dry and burn out is so remote I don't think a float switch is necessary. Float switches are known to malfunction especially if they are not triggered often. I do recommend a backup pump, you need one regardless. Since your current pump is noisy, a good excuse to get a new pump.
I don't know what you use but the pumps I have are Mag 12 and Eheim 1262, both are very quiet. My MH ballast is louder than the pump.
Get rid of the Durso pipe, use a straight pipe with a long screen on top, that way you don't have to dial-in the gate valve every time the pump is turned off and restarted. Gate valve is still a good idea.
The chance of the pump running dry and burn out is so remote I don't think a float switch is necessary. Float switches are known to malfunction especially if they are not triggered often. I do recommend a backup pump, you need one regardless. Since your current pump is noisy, a good excuse to get a new pump.
I don't know what you use but the pumps I have are Mag 12 and Eheim 1262, both are very quiet. My MH ballast is louder than the pump.
Get rid of the Durso pipe, use a straight pipe with a long screen on top, that way you don't have to dial-in the gate valve every time the pump is turned off and restarted. Gate valve is still a good idea.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I surely like to argue with you, but would never wish something like that upon you. I am sure the "I told you so" feeling would shiver my bones with glee... but in the end I hate to see anybody have a flood or any other problems. My intentions are honestly directed in helping people, you included. I am glad your system works well for you and am sure you understand it's limitations and operating parameters.
Bean
Like I said, there are several holes in the back (which you cant totally see from that picture), so it's not that humid in there. Whenever I open up the doors, it's just a little warm, the air is not humid in there. Plus I do open it up to check things several times a day, so it gets aired out pretty frequently.
I sealed everything inside the cabinet with mold/mildew resistant caulking. Then I painted everything with 3 coats primer, 3 coats paint (both mold/mildew resistant). So I dont think it will be an issue. I have to fix that crack at the bottom right because the wood I used was a little warmed, so the door hit it a few times and chipped the paint.
Again, the picture is dark in that area (plus the skimmer cup is in front), so you cant see that there's actually about 5 inches betwen the foam and the back of the fan. There's plenty of room around there for air circulation.
I sealed everything inside the cabinet with mold/mildew resistant caulking. Then I painted everything with 3 coats primer, 3 coats paint (both mold/mildew resistant). So I dont think it will be an issue. I have to fix that crack at the bottom right because the wood I used was a little warmed, so the door hit it a few times and chipped the paint.
Again, the picture is dark in that area (plus the skimmer cup is in front), so you cant see that there's actually about 5 inches betwen the foam and the back of the fan. There's plenty of room around there for air circulation.
Silverfish
New member
Pump noise
Pump noise
Hey all,
thanks for the replies
I didn't know that it may have been the durso pipe that is creating the need to dial in my valve every time I turn the pump off... I will replace it with a simple straight pipe this weekend and let you all know how it turned out. thanks for that piece of info.
I was keeping the durso pipe cause It was easy to height adjust, but it does have an uneven inside diameter, and really there is no need to height adjust after you get it right the first time anyway...
Pumps:
I have a Rio 14 pump. I started with a rio 17, but it blew my poor fishies around the tank too much, so I checked the characteristics, and it turned out it was too strong for my little ole 75 gallon. A Rio 14 seems perfect flow wise, but it is really noisy. It is a fully submersible pump.
The advantage of my "flood proof sump" is that it is flood proof....
BUT- the chamber to house the pump is actually quite a tight fit, therefore the pump tends to cause vibrations against the glass. I have the whole sump on foam, and the pump sits on suction cups. I ordered bacterial and moisture resistant soundproofing. It should get here this week, so I'll keep y'all posted
Ya Jac, I thought you would be happy that someone else is using the "Silent, one sump intake method"
Thanks for the tips on the float valve. I will make it a routine to check it every sat when I change my water.
:
Pump noise
Hey all,
thanks for the replies
I didn't know that it may have been the durso pipe that is creating the need to dial in my valve every time I turn the pump off... I will replace it with a simple straight pipe this weekend and let you all know how it turned out. thanks for that piece of info.
I was keeping the durso pipe cause It was easy to height adjust, but it does have an uneven inside diameter, and really there is no need to height adjust after you get it right the first time anyway...
Pumps:
I have a Rio 14 pump. I started with a rio 17, but it blew my poor fishies around the tank too much, so I checked the characteristics, and it turned out it was too strong for my little ole 75 gallon. A Rio 14 seems perfect flow wise, but it is really noisy. It is a fully submersible pump.
The advantage of my "flood proof sump" is that it is flood proof....
BUT- the chamber to house the pump is actually quite a tight fit, therefore the pump tends to cause vibrations against the glass. I have the whole sump on foam, and the pump sits on suction cups. I ordered bacterial and moisture resistant soundproofing. It should get here this week, so I'll keep y'all posted Ya Jac, I thought you would be happy that someone else is using the "Silent, one sump intake method"
Thanks for the tips on the float valve. I will make it a routine to check it every sat when I change my water.
:Silverfish
New member
Ya, I got my soundproofing today, so this weekend I am looking forward to a quieter night... I hope I hope!
I will put the pump on foam...
RD- No I don't have to top off, cause the water level in the main chamber is the one that fluctuates. the water in the overflow and return chamber stays level...
hope this makes sense....
I will put the pump on foam...
RD- No I don't have to top off, cause the water level in the main chamber is the one that fluctuates. the water in the overflow and return chamber stays level...
hope this makes sense....
Silverfish
New member
Well, I got the soundproofing, and it pretty much did the same job as shoving 4 pillows around the sump... muffled a still annoying noise! argh...
Anyway, after extensive research and some checks into pumps, I found a store that sold "quiet one" pumps (research showed that they are good, not great quality wise, but fine for fresh water - what I have)
Anyway, I would have loved to have gotten a velocity pump, but my place tends to be hot already, and I don't want to boil my fish
So I installed the "Quiet One" pump... and TaDA..... the annoying noise from my tank turned into a nice relaxing, soothing
mild burbling noise (the last thing I have to fix are my hoses- they still make a rushing noise)
So, finally, I am happy and can sit in the living room and enjoy my fish without constantly trying to adjust the darned pump to the best position...
If only they would stop hiding on me......
Anyway, after extensive research and some checks into pumps, I found a store that sold "quiet one" pumps (research showed that they are good, not great quality wise, but fine for fresh water - what I have)
Anyway, I would have loved to have gotten a velocity pump, but my place tends to be hot already, and I don't want to boil my fish
So I installed the "Quiet One" pump... and TaDA..... the annoying noise from my tank turned into a nice relaxing, soothing
mild burbling noise (the last thing I have to fix are my hoses- they still make a rushing noise)
So, finally, I am happy and can sit in the living room and enjoy my fish without constantly trying to adjust the darned pump to the best position...
If only they would stop hiding on me......
BTW, for those of us doing using this silencer method, I just setup my auto-topoff and came across a small issue.
Due to the way the water level fluctuates, I find the drain gets backed up at night, so more water ends up in the display tank. Therefore the the sump water level is lowered, causing the topoff unit to unecessarily fill up with more water. I've waken up to a few mornings where the sump level is a few inches higher than where it should be, due to the excess topping off.
This is easily solved by lowering the auto-topoff sensor.
Due to the way the water level fluctuates, I find the drain gets backed up at night, so more water ends up in the display tank. Therefore the the sump water level is lowered, causing the topoff unit to unecessarily fill up with more water. I've waken up to a few mornings where the sump level is a few inches higher than where it should be, due to the excess topping off.
This is easily solved by lowering the auto-topoff sensor.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Why is your water level fluctuating?
Also if you lower the float for your top-off, then the water will evaporate, and the same problem will occur at the new lower level.
Bean
Also if you lower the float for your top-off, then the water will evaporate, and the same problem will occur at the new lower level.
Bean
It only backs up at night. I'm guessing it has something to do with the water temperature... Not sure.
No, when I lower the sensor, it's actually lower than the water level anyways. So during the night, only a little bit evaporates. Then by the next day, the extra water in the display tank drains back to the sump and submerges the float even more. It's been working for a few days now, no problem. When I said move it down, it's only but like 1/2" or less.
No, when I lower the sensor, it's actually lower than the water level anyways. So during the night, only a little bit evaporates. Then by the next day, the extra water in the display tank drains back to the sump and submerges the float even more. It's been working for a few days now, no problem. When I said move it down, it's only but like 1/2" or less.
I had the same question, once your evaporation is to the point of the new lowered float level should the same problem occur?
I have been topping off manually but always wondered how an auto top off may be worked out with this system. Maybe a sensor in the overflow box to shut off the top off when the water is too high in the overflow?
I have been topping off manually but always wondered how an auto top off may be worked out with this system. Maybe a sensor in the overflow box to shut off the top off when the water is too high in the overflow?
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