NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[rdmpe]

I don't think it will work then. The whole point of this system is to have no air into your pipe. If the emergency drain is connected to your functioning main drain, it will allow air in.

Also, if your drain gets clogged below where they join, then you don't have an emergency drain any more and your tank could flood. Though I suppose that isn't likely since you will join them below the valve...

 

[aqua_obs]

It'll be 2x 1" for the main drain and 2x 3/4" for the E drain all into a 2" drain, if the 2" drain gets plugged..... I'm hurtin?!?

Think it would work if I folded the E drain over into the water? Keep the U section above the main drain intake? Kind of like this:

 

[jacmyoung]

I have to agree, I finally scrapped mine as well, after using it for about 7months, I just could not get the overflow to stabilize. The only thing I could pinpoint was the atmoshpheric pressure. I checked pump outputs, installed gate valves, drain line submerged, above water, regardless, it would not stay constant.

the system works well on smaller setups, however, I think with large turnover rates, the small fluxes in atmospheric pressure combined with the long drain (appr30+foot) caused major fluctuations that could not be tolerated.

Apparently this system does not work for everyone. Back in 2003 when I had my 140 gallon tank, I had two drains setup this way with gate valves to control flow, the water level would fluctuate, requiring frequent adjustments. Some people say that is because you did not put things together right, but that is not possible. It is a straight forward plan, no design variation to cause some people to require constent level adjustment yet others do not, so I must agree with your explanation.

This time I am setting up a smaller tank, maybe it will work.

 

[KAiNE]

I am one that is using this method with 2 x 1.5" drains. In hindsight i wish that i hadnt merged them before the gate valve and used a gate per drain but.....oh well. I have been watching mine very closely and what i am seeing is that late at night and early in the morning one side rises higher than the other, I dont know if it has to do with the slight height difference or what. The last time i posted i blamed this on atmospheric pressure but that is not the case (measured). What i do see is that when one side rises, the other side falls.

I see no salinity fluctuations due to this. I use an auto top off in a 4' 50 gallon sump as well.

I will let it go and see what happens, i dont see any ill effects yet and i dont miss the noise.

BTW i am moving about 3100GPH

 

[aqua_obs]

I bet having separate tubes for all the out pipes would work better.... I'm curious why your tank fluctuates in the morning, but I'm sure the variation between sides is basically a sloshing, nothing between them to dampen the movement back and forth. A pendulum effect.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The return pump is a constant. It does not matter if you have seperate pipes or all of them flowing into a single collector. The flow will never remain consistant from pipe to pipe. In other words there is no magic flow divider that will keep each pipe at the same rate. If you have 1000gpm, it will not be devided equally between 3 drains. In the flow rate of each drain will rise and fall due to barometric pressure, eddy currents, resistance due to slime and algea, etc. The minute height differences and pipe lengths create many variables causing each drain to behave slightly differently with these changes. The sum of the flow from the drains will remain constant, but the drains will "trade" flow back and forth.

Bean

 

[aqua_obs]

After further thought, I was going to change my post. Bean is right and your probably better off having the 2 connected together because trying to adjust each individual pipe might change the last pipe you adjusted, so now I change my thoughts and say connect them together and adjust one gate valve and hopefully, if there isn't large differences in the bends, etc in each pipe they won't oscillate back and forth... It is a pretty lossless system thought, so setting up oscillations that don't stop are pretty easy. Maybe a 2 exit system is pressing the technology? I'm still going to try it.

 

[jacmyoung]

I also wonder the need for the emergency drain. Is it because people use this method subconsciously don't feel a restricted drain is a comfortable one, even if it provides a perfect solution for low or no noise?

Certainly there should not be fear of tank or sump overflow. A properly dialed in tank/sump combo can not overflow regardless what is going on in the system, except when the tanks or piping themselves are leaking.

 

[rdmpe]

Are you guys using two active (not emergency) drains because you cannot get enough flow through one drain?

I think that even if the system is set up to prevent floods (ie the tank can hold all of the water from the sump if the drain clogs and the sump can hold all of the water from the overflow if pump stops) then you could still at least ruin your pump by running it dry if you don't have some safety system such as the emergency drain. Other than that I guess the emergency drain wouldn't be needed if the tank can hold all of the sump water...

 

[BeanAnimal]

jacmyoung...

You couldnt be further from the truth. Anytime you use flow restriciton to "tune" a system, you are asking for trouble. Remember the balancd flow here is being created becuase you are restricting a drain and forcing it to run at it's upermost limit to keep it fully submerged. Your return pump is a constant. IF ANYTHING from slime, to snails, or barometric pressure, or specific gravity... causes the fow to be reduce, your display will overflow.

What tank can hold all of the sump water? My display is a 75 and my sump is hold 50 gallons. Most diplays are full to the edge of the top plastic at least.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

Oh no Bean you are wrong if your tank has even the slightest chance to overflow, time to go back and work on your sump so it will never, ever happen, short of a tank break.

You can have a 75 gallon tank, and a 250 gallon sump and still never overflow. If anyone of you are still running your system without full overflow proof, a restricted drain should be the last worry on your mind right now.

BTW, I tested this system without the emergency drain, it turned out when the water level in the overflow got high enough, my return pump compartment in the sump started to make water splashing noise due to drop of water level, therefore creating a bigger and bigger waterfall on the baffle. Will see how much time there is before adjusting the drain valve.

If anyone can think of the danger of no emergency drain in this system, I am all ears. The only thing I can think of is when the overflow box water level is too high, the water in the return pump compartment can drop to the point that the pump will be sucking air, which could damage the pump if not corrected soon.

I am testing my sump to see how long will that happen from the time I start to notice the splashing in the sump to the point that my pump is sucking air. If it normally takes a few days to reach that point, there is really no concern.

This way I can still use the return in my overflow box as usual. I am sure many are in the same boat as I am.

 

[rdmpe]

The only way to make sure that a display doesn't overflow from a big sump and clogged drains is if your return pump intake compartment runs dry first. It sounds like a good idea to set the sump up this way - a burned up pump is way cheaper than a flood! I am still finishing up my plumbing and will have to look into this! Although my system will have a 1.5" active drain and a 1.5" backup with less than 1000 gph flowing through it. My return pump is pressure rated and I'm going to have eductors to create a lot of flow out of a little pumped volume (hopefully)... Also have a dart on a CL for about 3000 gph...

 

[BeanAnimal]

what are you talking about? My tank has no chance of overflow.... I also don't use the system described in this thread.

Any time you have flow being restricted by plumbing, then there is a LARGE chance of overflow. This was the original premise and it holds 100% true. Your workaround does not change this fact.

Your "safety" failsafe is the size of your return compartment. This means you are putting the return pump in danger of running dry if the drains become more restricted. This also give you very little wiggle room for varying flow rates if you change pumps. You are relying on the volume of the pump compartment compared to the excess volume that tank can handle before it floods. This is Rube Goldberg at best.... IN other words the average reefer needs to calculate the excess capacity of the display and then size the return compartment to run dry before the display floods the house?

A simple emergency drain would surely be easier as well as safer for your pump. Not only that in the event of a partially cloged drain, the system will continue to operate normally via the "emergency" drain. In your scenario, the system will have a severly (if not entriley eliminated) flow. Is this not a "DANGER"!!!

Secondly, "if this takes a few days.... there is no concern..." Why in the world would you even spend time building something that has to be adjusted every few days and has the potential of deadly results for your livestock. I really didn't need to post...as your own conclusions seem to illustrate the dangers of your proposed design.

Bean

 

[aqua_obs]

You can put a float switch into the line with your pump which turns off the pump should the tank water level get too high.

Snails/stuff will plug anything, so I'd say this system is interactive with the tank rancher! With an emergency drain and float switch I would think it is pretty safe?!!

 

[BeanAnimal]

The float switch could be used in some situations, but without a LOT of thought and some electrical knowledge you will run into a cycling (oscillation) problem. A latching circuit will prevcent the problem, but most reefers are not able to design such a circuit. You also have the problem of loss of flow in the event of a problem. With an emergency drain of the proper size, there should be no need for a float switch in the display.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

.... IN other words the average reefer needs to calculate the excess capacity of the display and then size the return compartment to run dry before the display floods the house?...

Bean

You got that right! In fact it was a known practice one of the most important tests when you setup a system is to shut the valve on the drain completely and let the pump run till it is dry to make sure at that point no water spills out of the main tank.

I have already read here several people had snails the size of the drain pipe crawed into the drain at night, causing severe clogging and pump run dry. Had they not tested their pump compartments you can imagine what a mess in the morning.

At least with this silent system everyone is addind a screen to the drain so no large snail can cause sudden clogging.

My point is in a slow clogging which can be more of an issue with this silent drain system, the purpose of the emergency drain is not to prevent a flood, rather a warning by means of noise from the emergency drain. If so, the noise from my pump compartment water fall serves the same function, I only need to make sure I always have enough time to correct the clogging before the pump has a chance to run dry.

If I will be on an extended absence, all I need to do is open up the drain valve. Noise will not be an issue if I am not there to hear it.

 

[funkyman]

I'm glad I found this thread before I set up my new 120. It has dual overflows, and is perfectly silent with absolutely no bubble problems thanks to the methods Herbie came up with.

My wife didn't even believe the tank and sump were running.

 

[nikoendo]

nice !

 

[BeanAnimal]

Without beating you up to bad...

Your logic is circular. My point was that you are doing things the hard way. If you don't see that, then you are looking at the problem the wrong way. Step back and think about it. You fix one problem by creating another potential problem (pump failure). It should be mentioned that the pump failure can easily lead to livestock loss.

Lets look at it this way. My return "compartment" is 50 gallons. My display tank certainly can not hold that much EXTRA water... However, there is no chance of my system overflowing and causing a flood. Why? I have an unused standpipe that will handle the entire flow of my return pump. Secondly and irellavant here is that THERE IS NO WAY A SNAIL OR OTHER CREATURE can block my overlflow.

In the case of a gradual slow down (slime buildup, algae, feather dusters).... It will be quite obvious, as the level of the water in the overflow box will rise. Even if I miss it (not possible), the emergency drain will handle it.

The emergency drain is to prevent a flood... if your using it as an audible alarm and you have to make frequent adjustments then your setup is poorly thought out. If your return pump has the chance of running dry because of a snail, your system is not well thought out. If you have to have to do something different to your setup when on "exteneded absence" then it is not well thought out.

So the obvious point I was trying to make was that

1!) limiting the water to the return pump may prevent a flood, but will damage the pump.

2) a system that has to be adjusted is not well thought out, as many of us don't have to make adjustments EVER

3) the amount of trial and error involved to size a return compartment to function as you have indicated is more than silly... it is the bass ackwards way to design a sump.

4) your evaporation capacity is severely hampered by the miniscule amount of water that can be held in the return area.

So this all begs the question...Why in the world would you resort to such a convoluted system if there is a simpler better way?

In my setup (and many others), the system is self correcting. In your system an emergency condition can cause system failure in "your exteneded absence". What happens if you don't remember to "open that valve". In my system, the emergency drain will allow the system to continue to operate normally. Nothing to adjust, nothing to rembmer, it just chugs silently along day in... day out.


Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

First off since my last post I have been running the silent drain and my water levels in the overflow and sump have not changed. You dreamed up so many negative points about our "flood-proof" sumps (which many reefers employ) it's not even funny any more.

The likelyhood of your system flooding the carpet is very small, almost none, but that is not safe enough for me. I want zero chance of flooding short of a tank leak. The majority of reefers do employ such technique which takes only a few minutes to adjust. In the last several years of fish keeping I never had to adjust my tanks once because of such arrangement.

Now that I am using the silent drain, things are a little different. The silent drain restrict the flow which makes many nervous. Have you thought of why they never were worried before even though they never used an emergency drain? Because we don't have to if a "flood-proof" sump is used. Ever thought of why the standard tanks with overflows never have a emmergency drain hole, only one drain and one return? If you were correct then all tank manufactures must be mad.

But so far I don't even think there is much need to adjust the drain often and my pump certainly has little chance of running dry, if at all with the silent drain. I should have noticed it long before the slow logging ever to develop to the point that my pump chamber is running dry, if I can't notice such a slow development I simply should not be in this hobby to begin with.

My point is then I will go ahead to start using the silent drain without the emergence drain so my other outlet remains to be my pump return. And I am doing so without crossing my fingers.