NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[BeanAnimal]

You seem to be missing 3 major points.

Point 1)
If you have NO emergency drain AND your are using restriction to create a silent overflow. YOU ARE AT RISK OF A FLOOD.

Point 2)
If you are setup as above but make your return compartment so small that the display tank WILL NOT overlfow if all of the drains CLOG, then you are asking for a burned up pump.

Point 3)
If your return pump rund dry and dies while unattended, your livestock wil die.

What does this all mean? If you use the method described in this thread to "silence" your overlfow, then you MUST have an emergency drain. Preferably one that stays dry unless the water rises due to a restriction in the main drain.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN EMERGENCY DRAIN, then in the event of restriction, your pump will run dry. This is POOR design at best. Call it "flood proof" or what ever you want but it is horrible engineering. Add the fact that calculating the proper compartment size is time consuming and results in very little evaporation capacity... the whole theory becomes kind of silly.

Now that we have established the facts, lets look at your other asumptions:

1) What do other tank manufacturers have to do with this? Firstly they don't build overflows that are designed to be restricted to the borderline of their flow capacity.

2) I have not dreamed up anything. I am telling you the the way it is. Your setup wihtout an emergency drain is poor design that puts the system in peril by it's very nature.

3) You may run your setup however you please. I am only trying to show you how poor your design is.

4) My system has almost no chance of flooding my floor. YOUR SYSTEM has a very high propability of pump damage and/or livestock damage. REMEMBER if your drain clogs while your out at the pub, your return pump runs dry and your system does not circulate. My system continues to flow normaly with no changes, save for the fact that the water is going down a different pipe.

I honestly can't believe that this has taken 5 posts to illustrate. I might add that if I don't make it home and my auto top off dies, the system will run for days (11-14) due to my evaporation room. Yours wouldn't make it for 2. Remember your return compartment is where water evaporates from. If it is so small that it can't overlfow the tank with all the drains clogged, then it can't hold enough water to account for more than a day or two of evaporation.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

I think you should preach to all the tank manufactures about the danger of not including an extra emergency drain hole in their overflow boxes, and the liability they must realize when their tanks flood people's homes or kill their priced livestock. There are too many time bombs in thousands of homes to waste your time here.

I honestly can't not understand you valued your emergency drain so much for so long yet failed to realize none of the standard tanks with an overflow box uses emergancy drain.

Have you thought for a moment maybe, just maybe, all the catastrophic moments you came up with in the last several posts, simply do not exist or not often enough to even justify the manufactures the small effort in drilling one extra hole? Because they expect a flood-proof sump to be used with their tanks--it is a standard practice with a standard tank you buy from them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Firstly,

None of the overflow box manufacturers are recomending running the overflows at their maximum capacity. AND they are certainly not telling you to use a valve to restrict their flow.

AND peoples tanks overlfow all of the time.

What part of this are you not understanding?

1) The fact that the thread is about overflow restriction and how that restriciton makes an overlfow silent by pushing it right to the edge of it's capacity?

2) The fact that restriction of an overflow has the inherent drawback of making a flood more likely simply becuase it is being forced to run at capacity? There is no wiggle room for extra flow or more restiction!

3) The fact that tank and overlfow manufacturers don't build their overlfows to be pushed to the edge of their limit and they certainly DON'T design them to be restricted by a valve or snail

4) The fact that any overflow that becomes restricted will overflow, and IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY.

Bean

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also,

This whole notion of a "flood proof" sump is silly. I have listed the reasons twice (three times?) above. Manufacturers don't design overlfows with your "flood proof" sump in mind. The entire notion is misguided. They design overflows to be used with a suitable return pump that will not force the overflow into a dangerous condition. I might add that most of them are poorly designed anyway. They are noisy, lack the ability for high volume flow, are ugly.... etc. That is why this thread exisits, so people can build a better overflow than they can buy.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

But our exchange has nothing to do with a restricted drain but whether an emergencey drain should be standard or not, with or without a silent/restricted drain.

From my first post to you I said it is wise to use a flood-proof sump, which has nothing to do with this silent drain issue. It is you who kept changing subject.

So let me say it again, it is a wise thing and a standard practice to use a flood-proof sump because it is what the tank manufactures expected you to do, else they would have added an emergencey drain hole in the overflow box for you, which is not much an effort for the tank builders to so. The mere reason they do not do so is because you are assumed to have a flood-proof sump. The fact that you think pepole flood their tanks all the time only underscore the need for a flood-proof sump, or in your mind the need for an emergency drain. But my practice is standard whether you like what the manufactures are doing or not.

Whether their overflow boxes are ugly or badly made again has nothing to do with the sump issue, don't change subject.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Changing the subject? I have not changed it once. If you hadn't noticed this whole thread is about silent overflows with emergency drains. Your first post directed towards me was [SIC] "your wrong, you don't need an emergency drain, nobody needs an emergency drain if their sump is built correctly"

I am saying your wrong. It is that simple. Let me say it again, YOUR WRONG. Your design is poor and can be improved on. Your design puts your pump and livestock in danger. It can not be said any more plainly.

Since you insist on continuing this exchange we will do so under the premise that we are not talking about a the "silent overflow" described in this thread. Instead we will assume a standard tank with a standard overflow box.

Manufacturers:
1) They don't add emergency drain holes, becuse it costs money.

2) They don't add emegency drain holes becuase they take up room.

3) They don't add emergency drain holes because they don't expect you to drive the drain so hard that there is no extra overhead for blockage.

4) People flood their floors all the time. It is likely the most common accident in our hobby. It is not the manufacturers fault, and they certainly have not designed their overflows with the "flood proof" sump in mind.

5) What practice is standard? That manufacturers build overflow boxes without regard to what they will drain into?

Your whole premise is based on a false notion of what "manufacturers" have collectively agreed upon as a "standard overflow for flood prood sumps" and what most people use as a sump. The more the idea is repeated, the funnier it becomes.

Maybe now is the time to bring up that fact that the manufacturers could care less what you do, as long as you buy their stuff. And this brings us full circle to your statment that I am changing the subject. You simply don't have the the skills to comprehend what is being said. You tout the manufacturers as being "all knowing" in their design. My point was that they don't even build goods overflows. They build poorly designed overflows that most hobbiests need to improve upon just to make them useable. That is WHY THREADS LIKE THIS EXIST. Change of subjerct? NO... simply bashing your point to smitherines.

Now lets take all of your statements at face value and assume you are correct. The manufacturers DO build overflows with your sump design in mind. EVERYBODY on the PLANET uses your "flood proof sump". This still does not address the issue of pump damage or livestock death due to a clogged drains. THE DESIGN SUCKS NO MATTER WHO CAME UP WITH IT. It can (and has) been improved upon.

You have 3 choices.

A) Either underdrive your overflows, leaving enough headroom for clogging.

B) Add extra overflows to give you this headroom

C) Use your "flood proof" sump premise.

A and B allow the tank to operate normally even in the event of a clog. C allows your pump and livestock to possibly die in the event of a clog.

There it is spelled out again. Why are we still talking about this? Please tell me what part you don't understand? Your "safety mechanism" is poorly conceived and certainly can be improved upon.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

If you believe all tank manufactures are morons and don't have any fear of liability when their tanks often flood their customers' homes, I will even accept that.

But if you ever searched for "sump" in the picture gallery, you sould have seen hundreds of sump photos and diagrams, while they all take on different shapes, they all seem to include a small restricted chamber for the return pump. The reason for that is so the return pump can not accidentally dump a lot of water and flood the main tank in the event of a logged drain.

Of course you have the right to consider all those reefers moron as well.

BTW, I said many times and will say it again, "your pump and liverstock to possibly die in the event of a clog" is something you dreamed up. I have not heard anyone losing livestock due to a clogged drain. I haven't heard pump burn-out due to a clogged drain but the possibility is there. I bet you have more chance to have your pump die a natural death than to die as a result of clogged drain.

People keep a spare pump handy not in fear of pump burn-out in a clog, but for fear of its natural death. Nothing lives forever.

 

[jacmyoung]

For those who are considering the silent drain system I certainly did not suggest not to switch your return line to an emergency drain for added peace of mind. I know I am in the minority with a silent/restricted drain without a backup drain.

I am fully responsible for my action, I just have not truly found a compelling reason to lose my return line to a seond backup drain. So far the second drain seems to serve as an audible alarm only, not to prevent a flood, as I trust most of you employ a flood-proof sump.

To me it is a matter of running the risk of burning my pump, which is unlikely to happen, for the benefit of not having to run another return line behind the tank, which may not be possible depending on the placement of your tank.

 

[Taikimoto]

I read the first few pages and then came to the last to read it. Here is my understanding:

If I have a current tank with an overflow with one return and one outflow I could take that return, make it into an emergency outflow, and have the return come over the side of the tank instead. So I would have 2 outflows in the overflow and one over the side. The emergency would only drain water when the main outflow becomes "clogged" and the water level in the overflow rises to the point it is drained by the emergency overflow. And both of these drain into the same first compartment of the sump, while there is still the same small compartment for the pump, which shouldnt become completely dry as long as the emergency overflow "kicks in" in time. Other than that the emergency overflow is exposed to air until there is a clog. Now, the chances of the emergency overflow clogging would prolly be slim, but there still is a chance correct?

I think with the thread im reading:

1. You can burn up your pump still and kill stuff
2. You still have a chances for a flodd
3. There is ALWAYS a chance something will go wrong
4. All of the above.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ahh and we come full circle.

Most of us DON'T use a "flood proof sump"... it's a bad idea as stated 5 times now. The three most compelling reasons are:

1) Loss of flow due to a clog
2) pump damage due to the loss of flow
3) livestock damage due to the pump damage and losss of flow

You can't find a compelling reason? I just listed three. If you are running the "silent drain" as described in this thread WITHOUT the backup drain, your odds of disaster are much greater than my odds of a flood. You don't seem to be connecting the dots.

The big hole in your plan is concluding that the 3 items listed above will not occur. If your return clogs even partially your pump compartment will slowely drain because the pumps output is more than the drain is flowing. You are at the movies and your tank flow is severely reduced because a chunk of algae gets sucked into the drain. You go out for a drink and hot dog afterwards and your pump is running dry. This is not far fecthed at all. Again, the odds are much greater than that of a tank overflow with a standard drain setup. Are you forgetting that the "silent drain" works by reducing the capacity of the overflow to keep it FULL. There is no room for ANY slow down, yet you are equating it's operation to that of a drain that is running with plenty of extra headroom.

You can do whatever you please, it's your right. However you jumped into this thread with the words "YOU ARE WRONG". You also continue to put forth the notion that we all run what you call a "flood proof sump" when nothing could be further from the truth. We rsize our sumps to hold the excess water during a power outage, not to prevent the display from overflowing due to a clogged drain. The reasons have been givin 6 times now....

Good day

Bean

 

[rdmpe]

Well, I have an extra 1.5" drain line and I'm not afraid to use it!:lol:

So I am confident that I will not have a problem with my display overflowing.

 

[jacmyoung]

Yes sump is sized to hold excess water during a power outage, if that is the only concern, why everyone of the sump designs have a restricted pump chamber?

I see your point of an emergency drain for the silent drain system to support the flow when the main drain is clogged, but I never argued against a second drain for the silent drain system did I?

My point has always been, from the standard tank manufactures' overflow design, to the reefers' own sump designs in the picture gallery, you can draw two conclusions:

1) The standard reef tanks with built-in overflows do not use a second emergency drain;
2) Most of the DIY sump designs by the reefers do use a contained pump chamber to prevent overflowing the main tank.

You can continue to go in circle with your smart points, I am only interested in the above two facts. Unless you can dismiss my two observations as false, you must admit most manufactures and reef DIYers use the flood-proof sump as their standard feature.

Show me your facts and pictures, not just your hearsay, that most reefers use emergency drains, silent drain users notwithstanding.

And thank you for your concern with my lack of the 2nd drain and the silent system, keep in mind that I never said one should not have an emergency drain with the silent system, just that I am not using one, so please stop barking on that tree already.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have not gone in a circle once. I have said the exact same thing 6 posts in a row.

I don't know how much more blunt I can be.

1) standard reef tanks with built in overflows are not designed to be run at their upper limit where they are unstable. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY IF THEY BECOME RESTRICTED THEY CAUSE FLOODS!!!

2) Your assumtpion that people and companies design the return compartments to run dry if the drains become clogged is absurd. You keep saying that most people and companies design their sumps to provide this function. I say your dead wrong. AGAIN for the TENTH TIME. IT IS A POOR DESIGN, AS IT PUTS YOUR PUMP AND LIVESTOCK IN PERIL.

I think you need to go back and read your first post in this thread... and then your second and third.... You seem to have lost your own way in this conversation.

I have never once said that most reefers use emergency drains. You dreamed that up on your own.

I have no concern for your setup or your floors. You said I was wrong, and have yet to show why. I am simply answering your continued lack of comprehension regarding this subject. You are basing your entire jumbled thought process on the above 2 misguided observations. What more can I say.

 

[jacmyoung]

You can believe this is a poor design as much as you want by continue to run in circle with your points I don't care.

I judge a good design by its popularity. Yeah if there is a thrid hole in my overflow box I will not hesitate to use it as a backup drain, but it turned out it was not necessary, or else most tanks would have had the third hole in there.

It is not an assumption my dear friend it is fact! Most all standard reef tanks with overflow boxes have two holes drilled, one for return one as drain, no emergancy drain needed. And most all DIY sump designs you can find on this forum have a confined sump chamber to prevent overflowing the main tank ever!

You can continue to ignore these two facts and totally wrapped up in your surperior emergency drain design all you want, it is your right.

Again we are not talking silent drain system here so when you decided to post the points again next time, remove that one of your points about the restriced drain would you?

 

[jacmyoung]

Ahh and we come full circle.

Most of us DON'T use a "flood proof sump"... it's a bad idea as stated 5 times now...

By that I assume you meant most of you use an emergency drain, did you not meant that?

But you don't have proof just your hearsay. I asked you to go look at the DIY sump designs in the gallery and you will be surprised most of them ARE flood proof sumps.

You kept saying a flood-proof sump is a bad idea, I kept finding reefers design their sumps for flood-proof, and you continue to scratch your head wonder why you could not convince me with your dribble.

Show me what is true, not just what you believe is true.

Yes even if I had a third hole in my overflow box as a backup drain, I would still have designed my sump to be flood-proof. It takes little effort, and it has very little chance to burn my pump, and it is what most reefers do, you will realize it as soon as you care to look at their sump design plans and pictures.

So yes I continue to think you are wrong not to have a flood-proof sump. You have every right to disagree.

I have countless examples of reef tanks made without emergency drain pre-drilled, and countless examples of DIY sumps made flood-proof, you so far only offered your theory, no examples, what a logical person to believe?

How about this, now that you have go on record to claim that a flood-proof sump is a bad idea, and an emergency drain is a must, we will come back in about a year or so to see how reefers and tank manufactures have listened to your advice. If by that time I found most tanks sold have a backup drain, and most DIY sumps people plan have no flood-proof considerations, I will be ready to admit I am wrong, until then...

I am done.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You can believe this is a poor design as much as you want by continue to run in circle with your points I don't care.

Just where is my circular logic? I made a very simple point. I have done so 6 times with a very simple chain of logic. Your arguement has no point. You need to go back and read the entire progession of posts... Look where you started and look where you are now! This is honestly to the point where it is becoming funny. Read your next statement.... it sums up your entire thoughbt process and it's lack of intelligence.

I judge a good design by its popularity.

That has to be one of the silliest things you have said yet. You are confusing "good design" with cheap and easy. Convenience, Cost, Appearance, and LACK KNOWLEDGE OF A BETTER WAY all contribute to the popularity of a design or method.

Yeah if there is a thrid hole in my overflow box I will not hesitate to use it as a backup drain, but it turned out it was not necessary, or else most tanks would have had the third hole in there.

LET ME REMIND YOU AGAIN: The reason for this thread, and the durso threads, and the stockman and calfo threads, and hundreds of other threads and websites is simply the opposite of what you just said. OFF THE SHELF OVERFLOWS HAVE MAJOR DESIGN FLAWS AND SHORTCOMINGS. We are finding ways of making overflows better.

Come on dude... your using flawed logic to try and back up your flawed perspective... it can't get much worse.

It is not an assumption my dear friend it is fact! Most all standard reef tanks with overflow boxes have two holes drilled, one for return one as drain, no emergancy drain needed.

What does "what comes standard" have to do with what is "NEEDED". Your car does not come with baby seats, are they needed? Your house does not come with a fire extinguisher, is it needed? Your return pump does not come with hoses, are they needed? Your heater does not come with a reliable temp controller, is one needed?

Your point is pointless. It does not matter why, how, or who designed the standard overflows, or how many people use them. There are ways to better the desgin. Your "FIX" to prevent a flood is to limit the size of the return compartment. A STUPID IDEA, especially when better solutions are available. YOU HAVE NO GROUND TO STAND ON.

Lets sum up your logic:

You have concluded (assumed) that this is the most common (popular) way to set up a sump. You have then used that assumption to show that the design is good simply because it is popular. You have also asserted that manufactures INTEND for sump compartments to be limited to prevent floods, all because they throw a cheap, poorly designed overflow on their display tanks? You are saying that this is all by design from a manufacturers standpoint? Need I say more?

If your still scratching your head....
Thats like saying that FIRESTONE and FORD disgned the tires to blow out on purpose, to keep people from driving too fast. It wasn't a design flaw at all... it was a built in safety feature. Moreover, becuase FORD and FIRESTONE are so popular, the design was good.

And most all DIY sump designs you can find on this forum have a confined sump chamber to prevent overflowing the main tank ever!

Firstly, most DIY sump designs are not well thought out. Secondly, i don't see where people are "preventing tank overflow" by the use of a limited return chamber. Thirdly... IT IS POOR DESIGN.... Lets say it for the 100th time. Forcing the pump to run dry is poor design. No lets be blunt, it is stupid. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS. These include emergency drains, float switches, properly designed overflows.

The most common reasons for a small return chambers are LACK OF SPACE and the desire for an IN SUMP refuge, DSB or SKIMMER compartment. Again, you are using assumptions to draw a conclusion. The assumptions are wrong, and therefor the conclusion is wrong.

You can continue to ignore these two facts and totally wrapped up in your surperior emergency drain design all you want, it is your right.

I have not ignored anything and you surely have not shown ANY facts. You have assumed a lot and shown nothing. I did not design (invent) emergecny drains and am not wrapped up in them. I am simply beating you to a bloody pulp because you insist on dragging this out. GO BACK AND READ YOUR FIRST POST, you called me out and continue to babble about nothing. There are all kinds of options to prevent a flood. Each has pro's and cons' Your "flood free sump" has dangerous cons. The only CON with oversized drain systems, emergency drains, float switches, etc is the fact that they take either space, brains, or money (pick two).

Again we are not talking silent drain system here so when you decided to post the points again next time, remove that one of your points about the restriced drain would you?

The logic applies to all drain systems. The shortcoming of your "flood free design" applies to all drain systems. Ohh and this thread is about silent drains.

Good grief.

 

[KAiNE]

You guys need to take this to a PM.... this is a thread about a very good plumbing method (that i use) and not a ring for you to argue.

No one is getting any good info from you guy's ranting.

Peace

 

[BeanAnimal]

KAine,

There is a lot of good information burried in the posts. The plumbing method seems to be a decent idea as well. The only drawback I see is the need for adjustment on some systems. But then again, some people constantly fiddle with their dursos.

Bean

 

[jacmyoung]

...The reason for this thread, and the durso threads, and the stockman and calfo threads, and hundreds of other threads and websites is simply the opposite of what you just said. OFF THE SHELF OVERFLOWS HAVE MAJOR DESIGN FLAWS AND SHORTCOMINGS. We are finding ways of making overflows better. ...

I never said the standard overflow box design does not need improvement, the fact I am here is trying to improve the standard plan.

But if you noticed the examples you used yourself above, NONE of them has to do with modifying the standard overflow to include an emergency drain, why because it is not necessary and an unnecessary waste of space, money and resources when a simple pump chamber in the sump will take care of it.

The examples you used above all have to do with reducing noise, so again you are confusing yourself with what we are debating here.

 

[jacmyoung]

...You have concluded (assumed) that this is the most common (popular) way to set up a sump. You have then used that assumption to show that the design is good simply because it is popular. ...

You need to go back to learn the definition of the word "assumption." When I asked you to go check out all the sump plans that include a pump chamber for flood-proof, those are facts not assumption. I did not assume they are flood-proof sumps, they in fact ARE.

Now you can of course say most of those plans are bad ones if they do not include a backup drain. I cannot argue against that if you believe most people are fool, including the tank manufactures. I just can't agree with such notion, I am not that proud a person to think I am superior, and everyone else is fool.