NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

Dude your being as dense as a black hole. You are thinking to hard. Your design is flawed, as is the logic that leads you to believe it is not. It has all been laid out before you, all you have to do is slowley read (or have somebody read and explain it to you.) That is all that needs to be said.

Good day.

Bean
 
Come on guys....enough! PLEASE take it to a PM like kaine suggested. You're ruining a really good thread!
 
When designing a system, you should always have redundancy.
Overflows being the #1 but also need more than 1 method of circulation, redundancy for heater thermostats, redundancy with you top off method and probably many more..... . All need careful planning, you must think out the worst case scenerio and plan for it.

In this case the worst case scenerio is a clogged or partially clogged drain. When using only 1 drain line, you do not have redundancy and are at risk with this scenerio. Obviously it's up to you to accept this risk or not.
 
While I understand our exchange has been a distraction, and I will stop as requested, I do want to explain to the readers something most people are not aware.

While an emergency drain is not a bad idea at all, I was in the wastewater management business for a long while, and had seen emergency drains fail.

In humid condition when a non-corrosive drain pipe is left unflushed for long time, given right conditions, bacteria can grow in the pipe, over time can potentially plug pipes that do not have regular flow in them. That is why many critical systems utilize double backup drains and regularly flush them.

The chance of a double-drain system to accidentally overflow is very remote, but due to my past experience it is not good enough for me when I can easily follow the commonly accepted sump plan to prevent overflow from ever occurring at all.

I leave with this post so people can go on with the subject at hand.
 
I am in the camp that would rather have both drain lines working all the time but each large enough to handle the full load.
 
David Grigor said:
When designing a system, you should always have redundancy.
Overflows being the #1 but also need more than 1 method of circulation, redundancy for heater thermostats, redundancy with you top off method and probably many more..... . All need careful planning, you must think out the worst case scenerio and plan for it.

In this case the worst case scenerio is a clogged or partially clogged drain. When using only 1 drain line, you do not have redundancy and are at risk with this scenerio. Obviously it's up to you to accept this risk or not.
Click to expand...

David, I never argued against the use of a backup drain when using a restricted/silent drain system. It wasn't about that. I agree redundency is necessary, but one must also realize the cost associated with such approach.

Nothing is 100% full proof, with all the backupdrains and flood-proof sumps, the tank can still leak and cause flood. manufactures as well as hobbists must evaluate the cost/benefit to come to a balance.

One thing I must believe is that a popular design must have its own good reasons, simply dismiss it as a bad one or blame the manufactures for not care for flooding people'e homes, well you must be extremely cynical a person to always come up with such explanation.
 
SO now lets get this straight...

Your new angle is that an emergency drain does not offer you enough protection becuase it could fail also? YET for it to fail the main drain has to fail first...and of course of the main drain fails in your system, the pump runs dry.

SO from a statistical standpoint:

EVERY TIME YOUR DRAIN CLOGS YOUR RETURN PUMP RUNS DRY! That is a statistical probablity of 100%

EVERY TIME MY MAIN DRAIN CLOGS There is only a slim chance of the emrgency drain or floatswitch failure. The statistical probability os likely near 0%

You then mention COST as another reason?

Time to get your statistics book out dude. You have a much better chance of return pump failure than I do of a floor flood. You have a much greater chance of livestock damge than I do also. Both cost more than that of the a float switch or emergency drain.

Worse yet, an emergency drain is a 1 time cost, your pump and livestock death have a good probability of multiple occurances.

Popular has nothing to do with good or smart A flawed design is flawed no matter who uses or sells it.

Your point is so baseless that it is laughable, yet you keep trying to persuade people that your on solid logical ground.

Bean
 
Except that my return pump has not burnt for the last five years. I have also yet to hear anyone who lost livestock due to a clogged drain.

No I am not here trying to pursuade people or change their minds, I am here to express my opinions, which I try to do my best to base them on facts, common sense and past experience. I believe readers are smart enough to draw their own conclusions, one way or the other.
 
So ...

Anyone who is using this method successfully - do you have a suggestion as to how deep the top of the main drain should be from the surface of the water in the overflow chamber? I was just going to do a standpipe type rather than a durso type. I have some screen that will keep critters out of it and should keep it from forming a vortex that could pull air into it.

So if you've had to tweak the depth of the drain below the water surface, let me know what you came up with.
 
Well, I ended up putting the drain 6" to 8" deep just sort of by accident, but it is working fine. I may make it a little higher so it dumps less water into my overflow when the pump goes off (power outage etc.)

I will say that during my wet test this method worked perfectly for several hours that I had it running. And it is *really* silent. No noise, no bubbles.
 
So I went ahead and did this last night. It definitely works. I watched it for a couple of hours, and it looked like it was level and not fluctuating.

BUT, this morning I heard a gurgling sound in my sump, and realized that almost all the water was pumped up, and it wasnt draining fast enough!! Luckily the display tank was able to handle the extra water.

Although, the problem was probably because I didnt setup the backup drain yet. I had only put a really long piece of 1" PVC over the other drain (it was too late last night to get out the tablesaw to cut another piece to size). So this morning I scrambled to open up the gate valve on the drain to drain back that extra water to the sump. Then I found a 1" > 3/4" adapter and an extra piece of 3/4" PVC that was tall enough (but not too tall). So I put that on this morning, hopefully it will suffice until I get home from work.

Anyways, my concern is Why suddenly more was being pumped up, than was being drained? Like I said, I thought I found the 'sweet spot' last night and balanced it. I even marked it off on my overflow and in my sump. I watched it for at least 2 hours, and it didnt go up or down even a milimeter. Yet throughout the night, something changed. I checked the intake of the return and the drain of the overflow, nothing blocking either. So once I do install the 'backup' drain, should I expect it to be in use every once in a while? I thought it would only be needed if the main drain got blocked up somehow?
 
Mine took a few days to truly equalize. I use a 2" gate valve on my drain and just a "pump" on the valve will raise or lower my water level about a half an inch but it does take a few hours to reflect that change, usually overnight.

How far up are you running your water level? My water level (inside the overflows) is about 8" from the top. The intake (inside the overflows) is about 2-3" below water level. I do use screens so this measurement is above the top of the screen.

This morning, mine actually was low (overflow water height) I don't know if this had to do with how cold it got last night or what.
 
I haven't run mine for more than a few hours yet since I'm still working on other parts of the plumbing. It seemed very stable over that time period, but I have heard that you have to give it days with the occasional small tweak to get it dialed in. But I would never run it without the backup drain. Not sure why you'd see a change overnight but at least the lesson was cheap this time! :eek:
 
Quick question

Quick question

I haven't had the time to read through all 17 pages of this thread, but before I do, I thought I'd ask a simple question.

I have a 90gal "All-glass" tank with corner overflow. This tank is a few years old, and does not use a durso style pipe. Looking at the "All-glass" website now, I see a durso style drain pipe. I'm guessing they switched over after I bought mine. My older style "All-glass" drain pipe has a pre-filter and a float. My sump is in the basement, meaning I've drilled holes in my living room floor. Based on what I've read so far, I would ONLY need to switch to a durso style pipe....either one made by durso, all-glass, or myself. I would NOT need to concern myself with sump noise. Is this a correct assumption? I'm reading this as the sump noise is noise AT the sump only. Or does this sump noise translate up to the hoses in my living room as well? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
jacmyoung said:
While I understand our exchange has been a distraction, and I will stop as requested, I do want to explain to the readers something most people are not aware.

While an emergency drain is not a bad idea at all, I was in the wastewater management business for a long while, and had seen emergency drains fail.

In humid condition when a non-corrosive drain pipe is left unflushed for long time, given right conditions, bacteria can grow in the pipe, over time can potentially plug pipes that do not have regular flow in them. That is why many critical systems utilize double backup drains and regularly flush them.
Click to expand...

I think you bring up an interesting point from your experiences in wastewater treatment, but I don't think it truly applies to our setups. A back up drain should almost never be in use at all and you'd have to have years and years of bacteria growth, which I don't think is even close to sustainable in our very clean systems. Also, I wouldn't compare our reefwater to that seen in a wastewater treatment plan, which would be more conducive and friendly to heavy bacterial growth that could block up a drain.

I'd be more afraid of calcium carbonate buildup in the backup drain pipe if you were to constantly have it in use and that would take a very, very long time. I think bacteria build up would be almost impossible IMO and IME. Now algae growth might be a different story if you are constantly using your backup, which essentially pretty much destroys the original concept of a backup, and you have a strong light source shining down on your overflow.

Peace,
John
 
To note, I've been using this type of system in one form or another for about 3-4 years and it's really quite foolproof. I mean, you'd have to have something catastrophic happen to the tank for both drain to be blocked up. :)

Peace,
John H.
 
I think the above posts about the sytem changing overnight sum up my entire point in this thread....

A system such as this requires a backup drain or disaster will happen. RYou are relying on way to many variables to create stable flow rate.

Not much more to say.

bean
 
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