New Sebae Anemone - Need HELP

[addictedreefer]

Yes, dry rock often has detritus, but it doesn't need "sterilized" - acid baths strip away the surface layer that may contain phosphate - not a given, but dependent on the rock itself, and acid baths are often commonly done to "renew" previously used rock. I have never come across dry rock that needs "cured" - a term used to process die-off from fresh live rock. I recently restarted my 9g with dry rock, and had zero nutrient leaching from the rock.

I made no assumption with the term "nutrient-free", but simply stating that adding dry rock will result in a new cycle is false - a cycled tank can process nutrients much more efficiently than a new sterile tank. It is also dependent on the amount of potentially "nutrient-laden" rock that was added, and whether it had been rinsed/ soaked prior to introduction to the tank.

I am also not aware of the "common knowledge" with regards to Marco rocks, and I doubt most aquarists using it have to wait "several weeks to months to cure" it. I have seen many threads here and elsewhere where it is used with minimal prep. While it is indeed possible the OP now has a "<1 month old tank", it is an assumption to state such without proper testing...

Please cite an example of someone using dry rock that did not experience a cycle. That is the very reason that the dry/live rock debate has raged so fiercely over the years: dry rock = no hitchhikers but requires lengthy cycle and maturing time. If dry rock did not experience a cycle, I'm pretty sure the debate would be over by now.

 

[zooman72]

Please cite an example of someone using dry rock that did not experience a cycle. That is the very reason that the dry/live rock debate has raged so fiercely over the years: dry rock = no hitchhikers but requires lengthy cycle and maturing time. If dry rock did not experience a cycle, I'm pretty sure the debate would be over by now.

You are complaining about two different and separate topics - I never stated the using dry rock only in a new tank results in not having to cycle an aquarium. A new tank is functionally sterile, hence the need to properly and carefully cycle the aquarium, even with live rock. The OP added new dry rock to an existing aquarium that had presumably already cycled previously, and should have had a live biofilter.

Not to be "that guy", but you seem to be quite combative and willing to contradict me here, but please read carefully before "unloading" if you do. I don't really mind, this being the internet and all, but making blanket declarative statements is not always that helpful (ex: "get rid of your glass top, you are suffocating the tank" - paraphrased of course), and I have not stated anything demonstrably false.

 

[addictedreefer]

As for my evidence re: it being common knowledge that Marco rocks need to be cured, please see the below links:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2122032

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1918116

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1174335

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1728804

Even Marco's website says not to add their rock to an established tank.

 

[kissman]

zooman: I think I did state it was an "old rule" of thumb. Yes Par is more modern way to measure light intensity, but I didn't figure OP owned a PAR meter as a lot of reefers don't. If the OP wants one he/she can get one and test the PAR of the 25 or so 3w LED's thier local reef club or LFS might have one to borrow. If you lived in Va I would gladly let OP use mine. The turn over rate is not just for the nem it also to keep detritus suspended so that the nutrient levels don't get to high and kill the nem. With the proper power heads you can create a lot of flow and not be intense but a gentle flow. As far as rock goes. Dry rock is dead rock and will have dead things on it. If you buy it drop it into a tank without cycling you can have a mini cycle. One piece probably not, but a "bunch" as was posted will probably cause a mini cycle and is best to Cycle before adding to display tank.

 

[addictedreefer]

You are complaining about two different and separate topics - I never stated the using dry rock only in a new tank results in not having to cycle an aquarium. A new tank is functionally sterile, hence the need to properly and carefully cycle the aquarium, even with live rock. The OP added new dry rock to an existing aquarium that had presumably already cycled previously, and should have had a live biofilter.

Not to be "that guy", but you seem to be quite combative and willing to contradict me here, but please read carefully before "unloading" if you do. I don't really mind, this being the internet and all, but making blanket declarative statements is not always that helpful (ex: "get rid of your glass top, you are suffocating the tank" - paraphrased of course), and I have not stated anything demonstrably false.

To the contrary, it is you who are being combative, and IMO, offering poor advice. You are splitting hairs on matters that I believe are beyond argument. Regarding the aquarium top, can fish survive in a sumpless/skimmerless tank with glass tops? Yes, but is it wise to put a sensitive anemone into a tank with poor oxygenation? Will some fresh air leak through the glass top? Yes, but not nearly enough. I have heard many horror stories of folks with closed tops having tank crashes when their temps creep a couple degrees higher than normal.

Regarding the dry rock curing issue, please see the threads I have cited. Although some may claim it to be free of organics, in practice as you can see that is not the case.

 

[zooman72]

As for my evidence re: it being common knowledge that Marco rocks need to be cured, please see the below links:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2122032

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1918116

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1174335

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1728804

Even Marco's website says not to add their rock to an established tank.

Parsing a bit I guess, but rock "curing" is different from treating/ prepping, and not sure this qualifies as absolute evidence of the "evil" of that product...

I am well aware of some (not all) aquarists having issues with dry rock leaching phosphates, but again the OP didn't state whether he prepped the rock or not. I also see little evidence of algae issues in his tank from his photos, and have no way of remotely determining his phosphate. That is on top of the fact that the presence of phosphate (if indeed elevated here) in and of itself does not condemn that anemone to death.

I also fail to see any statements on that particular website about usage, but "not to add it to an existing tank" - does that mean ever? Either start with it at the beginning or all bets are off...

 

[kissman]

To the contrary, it is you who are being combative, and IMO, offering poor advice. You are splitting hairs on matters that I believe are beyond argument. Regarding the aquarium top, can fish survive in a sumpless/skimmerless tank with glass tops? Yes, but is it wise to put a sensitive anemone into a tank with poor oxygenation? Will some fresh air leak through the glass top? Yes, but not nearly enough. I have heard many horror stories of folks with closed tops having tank crashes when their temps creep a couple degrees higher than normal.

Regarding the dry rock curing issue, please see the threads I have cited. Although some may claim it to be free of organics, in practice as you can see that is not the case.

This will also help with PH balance. I had a PH of 7.8 removed glass tops moved a power head towards the surface to add agitation PH now runs 8-8.2.

 

[zooman72]

zooman: I think I did state it was an "old rule" of thumb. Yes Par is more modern way to measure light intensity, but I didn't figure OP owned a PAR meter as a lot of reefers don't. If the OP wants one he/she can get one and test the PAR of the 25 or so 3w LED's thier local reef club or LFS might have one to borrow. If you lived in Va I would gladly let OP use mine. The turn over rate is not just for the nem it also to keep detritus suspended so that the nutrient levels don't get to high and kill the nem. With the proper power heads you can create a lot of flow and not be intense but a gentle flow. As far as rock goes. Dry rock is dead rock and will have dead things on it. If you buy it drop it into a tank without cycling you can have a mini cycle. One piece probably not, but a "bunch" as was posted will probably cause a mini cycle and is best to Cycle before adding to display tank.

Many fixtures have published PAR readings, and if accessible that might be a good start. Not to get into detritus suspension and removal, but water changes can also accomplish that, although I do agree that flow is probably on the low side here.

As for dry rock, it is simply calcium carbonate skeleton of formerly living reefs. The dead tissue long ago was consumed, and while it may have nutrients embedded, it is not simply a certainty. You can have a period of elevated nutrients from using it, but you can conversely have little to none as well. I am also not sure what a "bunch" is in comparison to what was already in the tank, nor the bioload and feeding schedule, nor the water quality as a result.

 

[zooman72]

To the contrary, it is you who are being combative, and IMO, offering poor advice. You are splitting hairs on matters that I believe are beyond argument. Regarding the aquarium top, can fish survive in a sumpless/skimmerless tank with glass tops? Yes, but is it wise to put a sensitive anemone into a tank with poor oxygenation? Will some fresh air leak through the glass top? Yes, but not nearly enough. I have heard many horror stories of folks with closed tops having tank crashes when their temps creep a couple degrees higher than normal.

Regarding the dry rock curing issue, please see the threads I have cited. Although some may claim it to be free of organics, in practice as you can see that is not the case.

Well, I am glad it is just your opinion and all, but to state I am offering poor advice by stating the OP should probably return the anemone and improve both his/ her knowledge base and aquarium conditions - how is that poor advice?

I "called you out" (if you want to call it that) because you made blanket statements based on "common knowledge" without evidence - specifically that the glass top and dry rock were probably the cause of the OP's issue. I believe otherwise, and I am not "splitting hairs" - anecdotal "evidence" as the base for judgment from afar is not helpful. You even throw in another anecdotal "proof" with temperature causing a tank crash, just to prove your point - yes, a glass top can exacerbate a temperature increase by cutting down on evaporation, but how is that relevant here? Just another point towards your argument that glass tops are bad?

How on earth do you know the aquarium in question has low oxygen levels - you don't, but recommend removing the glass top anyways, regardless of a lack of evidence or consequence it may have for any fish that may leap, or evaporation that may result, changing another parameter the OP may not be able to handle at the moment. You also state that the rock may be a cause for concern without evidence of elevated nutrients. How about a lack of proper light and constant movement of the nem by the OP, not to mention its condition before coming in to the tank?

With regards to the dry rock issue - I again have never stated that it is always free of nutrients, just that it is not guaranteed to have them. Again, you are relying on anecdotal material to "prove" something here, just not sure what...


One more time - the OP may want to reconsider the anemone at this time...

 

[zooman72]

This will also help with PH balance. I had a PH of 7.8 removed glass tops moved a power head towards the surface to add agitation PH now runs 8-8.2.

pH in this case is a function of CO2 levels (CO2 forms carbonic acid when dissolved in water), but the result of increasing surface agitation is a two-fold benefit of increasing oxygen saturation and decreasing carbon dioxide concentration, which in turn increases pH...

 

[addictedreefer]

Well, I am glad it is just your opinion and all, but to state I am offering poor advice by stating the OP should probably return the anemone and improve both his/ her knowledge base and aquarium conditions - how is that poor advice.

I "called you out" (if you want to call it that) because you made blanket statements based on "common knowledge" without evidence - specifically that the glass top and dry rock were probably the cause of the OP's issue. I believe otherwise, and I am not "splitting hairs" - anecdotal "evidence" as the base for judgment from afar is not helpful.

How on earth do you know the aquarium in question has low oxygen levels - you don't, but recommend removing the glass top anyways, regardless of a lack of evidence or consequence it may have for any fish that may leave, or evaporation that may result, changing another parameter the OP may not be able to handle at the moment. You also state that the rock may be a cause for concern without evidence of elevated nutrients. How about a lack of proper light and constant movement of the nem by the OP, not to mention its condition before coming in to the tank?

With regards to the dry rock issue - I again have never stated that it is always free of nutrients, just that it is not guaranteed to have them. Again, you are relying on anecdotal material to "prove" something here, just not sure what...


One more time - the OP may want to reconsider the anemone at this time...

I am afraid the only thing upon which we will agree this evening is that OP should reconsider the anemone.

As for your other contentions, first, let me be perfectly clear that nothing in my posts state that it is my position that the closed top and dry rock are the only, or even primary, issues. If you took the time to read all my posts you would see that I also raised lighting and flow as a potential issues here.

On a fundamental level, your demand for concrete proof where there is clearly insufficient time to "right the ship" with regard to the anemone is unwise. We live in a world where generalizations are often necessary in order to respond to dynamic situations. If it's cloudy outside, I may grab an umbrella, even if I haven't read the latest national weather service report. Why? Because usually if it's cloudy, my experience tells me there is an increased risk of rain.

Applying that analogy to this situation, my considerable experience in this hobby makes me weary of closed top sumpless skimless tanks and the addition of significant quantities of dry rock to an established aquarium without curing first. Your overzealous pursuit of certainty (ie demanding test results for each issue raised) is not helpful and appears to me to be based on some sort of innate need to be a contrarian. The truth is, I would like to see the test results just as much as you do, but we don't have the luxury at the moment. Instead, we have an anemone that appears to be in serious trouble. So we are left with generalizations and probabilities. Are there pieces of dry rock out there that are 100% clean? Perhaps, but chances are the rock that OP added, if untreated, likely did have imbedded organics and is a contributing factor to the anemone issues. The cloudy water visible in the pictures lends further support to that proposition.

 

[zooman72]

I am afraid the only thing upon which we will agree this evening is that OP should reconsider the anemone.

As for your other contentions, first, let me be perfectly clear that nothing in my posts state that it is my position that the closed top and dry rock are the only, or even primary, issues. If you took the time to read all my posts you would see that I also raised lighting and flow as a potential issues here.

On a fundamental level, your demand for concrete proof where there is clearly insufficient time to "right the ship" with regard to the anemone is unwise. We live in a world where generalizations are often necessary in order to respond to dynamic situations. If it's cloudy outside, I may grab an umbrella, even if I haven't read the latest national weather service report. Why? Because usually if it's cloudy, my experience tells me there is an increased risk of rain.

Applying that analogy to this situation, my considerable experience in this hobby makes me weary of closed top sumpless skimless tanks and the addition of significant quantities of dry rock to an established aquarium without curing first. Your overzealous pursuit of certainty (ie demanding test results for each issue raised) is not helpful and appears to me to be based on some sort of innate need to be a contrarian. The truth is, I would like to see the test results just as much as you do, but we don't have the luxury at the moment. Instead, we have an anemone that appears to be in serious trouble. So we are left with generalizations and probabilities. Are there pieces of dry rock out there that are 100% clean? Perhaps, but chances are the rock that OP added, if untreated, likely did have imbedded organics and is a contributing factor to the anemone issues. The cloudy water visible in the pictures lends further support to that proposition.

Well, at least we agree on something...

I too have considerable experience - over 30 years privately, and serve as a consultant for a local public aquarium, having also served years ago as a zookeeper. I am also a biology professor with a degree in marine biology (really, no joke) and published author, and my "need" for evidence is not overzealous at all, but quite grounded in reality. Offering advice based on supposition can be quite dangerous when dealing with living organisms, and anecdotal evidence in this hobby as a basis for a position has become dogma (see "LED's cannot grow corals" argument, or garlic can cure Ich, or even that all dry rock is loaded with nutrients, etc.). You are correct that generalizations can be used in life, and even in aquarium keeping, and I even used it here (light levels as a possible issue), but relying on them alone is not really wise IMO.

Maybe I am tired of seeing the same issue again and again (new hobbyist buys nem, has issues due to improper preparation), and maybe I am a bit "prickly" because my recently repaired knee is sore as hell. Either way, I believe the OP will listen to us and return the nem and prepare better before trying a new one, ride it out and hope the animal can survive possibly suboptimal conditions (which it may for a time), or witness it succumb shortly as we fear - hopefully it is the first option...

 

[addictedreefer]

Any update? Parameters?

 

[addictedreefer]

Any update? Parameters?

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