JOSE CASAS
New member
Sounds like your current sys is dong just fine, but if you want something new i vote BK AND OZONE
New Skimmer – Price is no Object!
- Thread starter pjf
- Start date
pjf
Premium Member
I want to replace the clutter (ozone, carbon, algae) in my system with just a skimmer. It must be able to do the same thing, such as remove yellowing compounds.
Any skimmer can skim organic particulates and compounds that are insoluble or float on the surface. When you spend more for a skimmer, you want it to skim DOC's that are more soluble. DOC's that are more soluble are harder to skim. But if a skimmer costs $1000 or more, then it is expected to skim more soluble DOC's, such as Gelbstoff. There is no use in paying more for a skimmer unless it skims "deeper."
Skimmers are like washing machines. You rate a washing machine by how it cleans your clothes. You rate a skimmer by how it cleans your water column. You don't want yellow clothes coming out of your washing machine and you don't want your aquarium water to be yellow.
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reef / aholic
New member
Do you mean Gelbstoff???
30reef
New member
I have to ask what is an EE/EC?
Adding ozone to your existing setup WOULD remove the yellowing compounds from your water, raise your ORP and kill pathogens that would come into contact inside your skimmer. But you would also have to run the skimmer effluent through carbon to remove the residual, not to mention add a carbon "hat" to the skimmer's cup to prevent ozone odor. An air drier is also nec. But that would only add more equipment which is what your trying not to do. That's my only suggestion but you probably already knew that. I don't think any skimmer will remove all of the yellowing agents in aquarium water, no matter how efficient it is.
Why not sell both of your current skimmers to help cover the cost of 1 larger and use the carbon still? That would eliminate at least 1 of the 2 skimmers you use now.
Adding ozone to your existing setup WOULD remove the yellowing compounds from your water, raise your ORP and kill pathogens that would come into contact inside your skimmer. But you would also have to run the skimmer effluent through carbon to remove the residual, not to mention add a carbon "hat" to the skimmer's cup to prevent ozone odor. An air drier is also nec. But that would only add more equipment which is what your trying not to do. That's my only suggestion but you probably already knew that. I don't think any skimmer will remove all of the yellowing agents in aquarium water, no matter how efficient it is.
Why not sell both of your current skimmers to help cover the cost of 1 larger and use the carbon still? That would eliminate at least 1 of the 2 skimmers you use now.
pjf
Premium Member
Skimmer to Lower DOC Concentration
Skimmer to Lower DOC Concentration
(1) If better skimmers cannot remove more DOC's, such as yellowing agents, what do they remove from the water column that my Tunze can't?
All skimmers can remove insoluble organic compounds or less soluble DOC's. Better skimmers should be able to remove:
- more soluble DOC's such as yellowing agents, and
- lower the concentration of DOC's in your water column further
(2) One test of lowered DOC concentration is the removal of yellowing agents. What skimmer can do this?
Skimmer to Lower DOC Concentration
Currently, I have one skimmer (Tunze 9010) and one carbon media reactor (MRC FMC-415). I'd like to replace them with a better skimmer that can do both jobs: remove DOC's including Gelbstoff.
(1) If better skimmers cannot remove more DOC's, such as yellowing agents, what do they remove from the water column that my Tunze can't?
All skimmers can remove insoluble organic compounds or less soluble DOC's. Better skimmers should be able to remove:
- more soluble DOC's such as yellowing agents, and
- lower the concentration of DOC's in your water column further
(2) One test of lowered DOC concentration is the removal of yellowing agents. What skimmer can do this?
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pjf
Premium Member
What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff?
What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff?
We should evaluate skimmers like we evaluate washing machines. We don't look at how dirty the waste water is. We look at how clean the clothes are.
Frankly, I'm not impressed with with a skimmer collects. A Remora in a cesspool can collect more than a Bubble King in a well kept system. I prefer to look in the water column and see how clean it is. If it has yellowing compounds (Gelbstoff), the skimmer isn't worth the money.
The more money you spend on a skimmer, the "deeper" it should clean the water. In other words, it should skim more soluble DOC's such as yellowing compounds. If you can't see the results, it isn't worth it.
OK - What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff? (No ozone, carbon, etc.)
What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff?
We should evaluate skimmers like we evaluate washing machines. We don't look at how dirty the waste water is. We look at how clean the clothes are.
Frankly, I'm not impressed with with a skimmer collects. A Remora in a cesspool can collect more than a Bubble King in a well kept system. I prefer to look in the water column and see how clean it is. If it has yellowing compounds (Gelbstoff), the skimmer isn't worth the money.
The more money you spend on a skimmer, the "deeper" it should clean the water. In other words, it should skim more soluble DOC's such as yellowing compounds. If you can't see the results, it isn't worth it.
OK - What $923 skimmer can remove Gelbstoff? (No ozone, carbon, etc.)
pjf
Premium Member
Skimmer for Lowest DOC Concentrations
Skimmer for Lowest DOC Concentrations
In other words, what skimmer can either:
(1) Lower the concentration of a certain difficult-to-skim DOC below what other skimmers can do, or
(2) Skim a DOC that is too soluble for other skimmers to touch.
Assume a small 75-gallon tank. I am not looking for a "bulk" skimmer that only skims overfed tanks. Links to test results with ORP meters, the Salifert Organics test, or other means of measuring DOC's would be nice if available.
Skimmer for Lowest DOC Concentrations
Very true but the carbon media still needs periodic replacement and maintenance. If no skimmer can remove Gelbstoff, then what skimmers can produce the lowest DOC concentrations?
In other words, what skimmer can either:
(1) Lower the concentration of a certain difficult-to-skim DOC below what other skimmers can do, or
(2) Skim a DOC that is too soluble for other skimmers to touch.
Assume a small 75-gallon tank. I am not looking for a "bulk" skimmer that only skims overfed tanks. Links to test results with ORP meters, the Salifert Organics test, or other means of measuring DOC's would be nice if available.
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marcrothschild
Active member
No matter who makes the skimmer, they all mix air aind water to create bubbles and will be limited in what they can/will remove. While some work better than others, there are compounds that cannot be filtered from the water by this method regardless of how good the skimmer is. This is why its a good idea to employ multiple methods of filtration. Carbon is one of the best/cheapest ways at removing yelllowing compounds, just put it in a media bag in the sump, agitate the media every few days, and change it monthly.
The data you are looking for would envolve a well designed study that would be quite costly to do correctly. I dont think any manufacturer out there has done anything even close to this, and most of the info on skimmer performance out there is subjective at best.
The data you are looking for would envolve a well designed study that would be quite costly to do correctly. I dont think any manufacturer out there has done anything even close to this, and most of the info on skimmer performance out there is subjective at best.
pjf
Premium Member
Simple Skimmer Test
Simple Skimmer Test
Such a test will not be hard or expensive to design. Here is a simplified test outline:
1. In your system, measure the level of a specific DOC type with the Salifert Organics test.
2. Stop your return pump but keep your skimmer running in your sump.
3. Test your sump with the Salifert Organics test every hour.
4. When the DOC concentration levels off, restart your return pump.
5. Your last measurement is the lowest DOC concentration that your skimmer can skim to.
Hopefully, the Salifert Organics test measures a DOC that can be skimmed. If it just measures Gelbstoff with a color card, I will be very upset.
We can propose other simple tests in a separate tank using water from a water change. You add an organic-based dye that can be moderately hard to skim but easily measured. You can compare two skimmers in separate tanks. There are many variations.
Simple Skimmer Test
Since freshwater skimmers are designed to skim DOC's that are more soluble in freshwater, Schuran who makes these skimmers must be on to something. Perhaps Schuran knows how to make saltwater skimmers skim "deeper."
Such a test will not be hard or expensive to design. Here is a simplified test outline:
1. In your system, measure the level of a specific DOC type with the Salifert Organics test.
2. Stop your return pump but keep your skimmer running in your sump.
3. Test your sump with the Salifert Organics test every hour.
4. When the DOC concentration levels off, restart your return pump.
5. Your last measurement is the lowest DOC concentration that your skimmer can skim to.
Hopefully, the Salifert Organics test measures a DOC that can be skimmed. If it just measures Gelbstoff with a color card, I will be very upset.
We can propose other simple tests in a separate tank using water from a water change. You add an organic-based dye that can be moderately hard to skim but easily measured. You can compare two skimmers in separate tanks. There are many variations.
manderx
New member
a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent. biggest problem with them is they have to be huge for the amount of water you push through them, otherwise all that water flowing down against the bubbles causes too much turbulence which then defeats the whole idea of true countercurrent flow. bubbles start off clean at the bottom and are exposed to cleanish water. then as they rise, they get dirtier and dirtier, and are exposed to dirtier and dirtier water. this gives you the strongest ability to maintain a steep concentration gradient.
pjf
Premium Member
Hahnmeister speculated about the cleaning abilities of tall, low-air-turbulence skimmers in the "ati skimmer" thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1183677). He offered the ER180 & ER250 as examples of such tall, low turbulence skimmers. He knew of no skimmer research though. Can you provide any links or sources for the information that "a tall countercurrent will produce the cleanest effluent."
Thanks.
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