New tank for pipes

[Capt_Cully]

70Gallon Oceanic Tech Tank

Still underconstruction obviously. Planning on LPS, softies, and Pipefish. It's going to have a Refugium in sump and has a CPR HOB fuge as well for maximum pod production. I'd ultimately like for the pipes to take frozen as well.

Other info:

Tank will be for LPS, softies and pipefish, possibly SH's

70Gal Oceanic Tech Tank, Stand, Canopy: $280-Kenny@ Petmart
16gal Perfecto Sump/Refugium: $30 DIY
Tunze DOC Skimmer: $60-used bin @CF in Roch
HOB CPR Refugium w/Light:$50-used, sedorusc on URS
4x39wTek Fixture w/Geismann Bulbs:$300-group order thru Tim@ABC Reefs
Panworld/Blueline 50px-x: $60-used off of RC forum-like new
Plumbing:~$50-checkswing, ballvalves, unions, Bulkheads, Lockline, tubing, C-clamps, etc...
Corallife Timer:$30

Things I had:
LR cured-need more, getting from Tim@ABC Reefs. He has some of the craziest looking Tonga-Fusion LR curing and dirt cheap. See Dr Bronx Zoo Tank Build on STRS, last few pages.
Powerheads-may not use any
Heaters
Thermometer
Excess plumbing-PVC, Bulkheads, etc

Not a bad Tally when considering the quality of the equipment. If I had gone new with everything I imagine it'd cost at least 2x as much. I'd hate to think of the $$$ I've blown learning this lesson.

Pics to follow. Like it to be a build thread.

 

[inazuma]

Along for the ride.....

Do be cautious with the LPS!

 

[mrwilson]

I'll be watching this one also. What LPS are you planning? I'm in the early learning stages about pipes, but it seems that aggressive LPS and pipes don't mix well (?).

 

[TamiW]

Do you know what species of pipefish you plan on keeping? That might make a difference on how safe the LPS would be . . .Though I think I'd probably skip LPS too just to be safe.

 

[pledosophy]

Capt is coming to the syngnathid world eh? Cool.

You got a steal on the gear my friend. You buy that stuff out of the back of a truck :lol: Nice work. I suck at bargin hunting.

Would love to see this all come together.

IMO here are some things to think about.

Mixing pipes with seahorses can be dangerous due to cross contamination of different strains of vibrio they carry. To help minimize the risk keep the tank temp around 72 and run a UV. Keep that water as clean as you can and try hard to manipulate flow to eliminate dead spots, while still allowing for places of rest. It's a challenge.

There are some fairly safe LPS out there. Sun corals are quite safe. Brains are pretty safe. I keep Acans without issues but have heard of one. Euphyllia's are out IMO.

HTH

 

[Capt_Cully]

Yeah, No Euphyllia for sure! I'm planning some colorful acans but really that's about it. I'm more interested in photosynthetic gorgs and fans. I have a giant green nepthia with my name on it already. Afterthat, just shrooms, zoos, maybe some xenia (isolated).

I'm more interested in pipefish than SH. I like bandeds and african blue lines. I'd like to keep both unless this idea is frought with peril??? I pride myself on being a responsible reef keeper, and I'd hate to mix species only to put them in jeopardy.

Tank is in a room with AC so I was planning on running it at 74deg. Lights are T5's (cool) and only pump will be return pump. No powerheads or other sources of heat. Aquascape will be fairly open to minimize stagnation. In the winter (CNY) keeping it cool won't be an issue.

Keep the tips comin!!!! I need all the help I can get. Tank should be ready for FW test next week.

 

[TamiW]

Blue stripe pipefish are territorial little assholes. They'll attack pipefish much larger than themselves, so definitely don't mix them! All the flagtail pipefish can be aggressive to similar species. You're much better off mixing different types - dragonface, alligator, and one pair of flagtails.

Also, flagtails like a lot of flow. Unless the return pump gives a lot of flow, I'd consider powerheads. They also like dark overhangs/caves, so keep that in mind when planning your aquascaping.

I don't know about the rest of the pipes, but my ABS do well at 80degrees - much more of a reef fish than your seahorses. I don't have enough experience with other species to say if bumping it up would be a good idea, but I personally would go to at least 76, maybe 78. Hopefully someone will chime in to say if that's a good idea or not.

 

[ann83]

Mixing different types of pipes could be a problem for a couple different reasons.
Being from different areas and being held at different sources, they have been exposed to different bacteria and parasites. When exposed to the bacteria and parasites carried by a pipe from another area, they are not likely to have defenses and can end up sick or dead. This is very similar to the issue with mixing seahorse species.
Also, mixing pipes from different environments really isn't going to fly. Mixing reef pipes like the dragonfaced and flagfins with seagrass type pipes like alligators is a bad idea. The "reef" pipes prefer more flow and slightly higher temperatures. The "seagrass" pipes like alligators prefer less flow and lower temperatures (more akin to how you would keep seahorses). In fact, alligator pipes will hitch like a seahorse, so any of your stinging corals would be a danger to them.
On a similar note, if you decide to go with dragonfaced instead of a species of flagfin (banded, multibanded, janss, bluestripe), you'll need to be cautious of any stinging corals & nems that the DFs might slide over, because they are much more of a bottom dweller & "crawler", while the flagfins are swimmers.

 

[TamiW]

I think the problem with mixing species and disease is way overblown. What you described can happen with ANY species of fish since most people in this hobby mix fish from different parts of the world without ill effect (or, sometimes with ill effect). A good quarantine protocol and healthy stock will go a long way to eliminating this problem, just like it does in all fish.

Mixing cb seahorses and wild caught pipes is a bit different because of NO exposure to wild pathogens in captive bred stock, but even that, I've known so many people that have done it successfully that I have to wonder if some other factor isn't to blame when there is a problem (like lack of quarantine?).

You've got a good point about mixing pipes from different environments though. However, since there are so many species of pipes, you're bound to find some that are compatible from the same environment.

Capt_Cully, since you've got such a tall tank, have you considered something fun like a DSB with garden eels? Could be pretty fun with a bunch of other long-spindly fish.

 

[ann83]

As has been discussed previously on this board and others, there are a couple of possible reasons why mixing species is addressed more in syngnathids than with other fish species. These include:
1. Syngnathids are more sensitive in the home aquarium than many other commonly kept species, especially to bacterial infections, so its possible that it is more common in syngnathids than other commonly kept fish species.
2. Although, who is to say that it does not happen with other fish species too. Often times when a sensitive fish mysteriously dies, the keeper writes it off as "a difficult fish", "aggression", "poor feeding", or "it disappeared". However, there are many dedicated syngnathid keepers that are more versed in fish diseases, who can/will culture for bacterial strains, and will perform/obtain necropsies to discover the true cause of death.
3. When discussing "mixing" of reef fish, you are usually discussing mixing of entirely different families of fish, or if related, mixing different genus of fish from the same family. Rarely are different species of fish from the same genus mixed outside the world of syngnathids. Because the mixed seahorses or mixed pipefish are so much more closely related, there may be a shared aspect of particular vulnerability to certain strains/adaptations of bacteria. For that matter, because seahorses can hybridize and produce fertile offspring, they may be more closely related as a genus than many other genus of fish.
4. This problem has been closely watched and documented and is not a fluke of assumptions made from reading the boards. Kevin (pledosophy) has followed the mixing of species very closely, and I'm sure that if you look through some of his backposts on the subject, it will hep you get a better grasp of the issue.

It is important to remember that the issue is not just mixing species, but also mixing sources (since the issue is different bacteria exposure); and that an initiating event (stress) is a precurser to bacterial infection, so less stress = better shot at mixing.

As for quarantine and healthy stock, bacteria is everywhere. The issue is not the mixing of ill fish, but the mixing of one fish who is an asymptomatic carry of a bacteria that the other fish does not have any exposure or immunities to at a time where the other fish is stressed and has a reduced immune response. Oftentimes the temperature is higher than 74 degrees, allowing the bacteria to mutate and reproduce rapidly, so by the time the second species is added, it is overwhelmed by the bacteria count in the water. I hope that helps clarify.

 

[Capt_Cully]

I thank you guys for the frank discussion. I'm truly taking it all in. I certainly do not plan to just add certain species because they "look purdy".

I am quite partial to the flagfin pipes so I'll likely pick one of them and go with it. For me, a relative beginner at this species, I'd rather play it safe for now. It's a tough call.

Which flagfin pipes do you think would do best in a group of similar genus and species?

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12844533#post12844533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishGrrl
I think the problem with mixing species and disease is way overblown.

I do think it is prudent to advice noobs to the syngnathid world so they can research a bit more on there own and decide what is best for them. Just helping people to make informed choices. If you look into how many people do mix and how many have problems the threat is real. I do think there is more involved and proper husbandry can go along way to alleviating the problems in many of the cases. JMO.

What you described can happen with ANY species of fish since most people in this hobby mix fish from different parts of the world without ill effect (or, sometimes with ill effect).

It really seems to be more prevelant with mixing syngnathids. Since we know about it with syngnathids we can take the precautions. Since there is no knowledge beyond assumptions that I have seen with the cohabitation of other particular species of fish we don't.

There are some bacterias that seahorses carry that can infect other fish and vica versa, like myco.

A good quarantine protocol and healthy stock will go a long way to eliminating this problem, just like it does in all fish.

I completely agree. I just think it needs to gone beyond that. QTing the seahorses is a great step, but how long do you QT your snails for? Do you go the full 12 weeks? What about your macro's, or the little zoa frag you picked up? If not your leaving your seahorses at risk of parasites which can cause bacterial issues (IMO many cases of bacterial illness are a response to an intial stressor.)

Mixing cb seahorses and wild caught pipes is a bit different because of NO exposure to wild pathogens in captive bred stock, but even that, I've known so many people that have done it successfully that I have to wonder if some other factor isn't to blame when there is a problem (like lack of quarantine?).

That's a really common misconception about the "wild pathogens". The seahorses that are CB in the hobby often comes carrying strains pathogens. They are not that much less likely to be a carrier then a wild caught. Infact many of the seahorses that come in as CB carry some really nasty strains of bacteria. There was the erectus from a breeder in 02ish, the ingens from 03, there has been some Kuda over the last few years, that despite any QT procedure those CB seahorses killed everything syngnathid they were mixed with. Every one, no exceptions.

I guess my point is that even though a specimen is CB it does not mean it is danger free. A CB specimen could be more of a risk to a WC in some cases, in some cases.

The main risk from WC's to CB is going to be parasites. Treating for parasites does not rid a syngnathid of them, it really only handles what is in the digestional track. Parasites can be buried other places in the seahorses like organs, heart, brain, and the common parasite meds will have no affect. Even with treatment and QT as these parasites will still be present and leave the potential for future problems.

This problem has been closely watched and documented and is not a fluke of assumptions made from reading the boards. Kevin (pledosophy) has followed the mixing of species very closely, and I'm sure that if you look through some of his backposts on the subject, it will hep you get a better grasp of the issue.

I'm still looking into it. I had a sample group of about a 100 instances where different keepers from all over the world were mixing species, same species from different breeders, seahorses and pipes, CB's and WC's but have had a hard time in keeping people intrested in reporting back at the designated intervals. I have about 40 that followed through the first year. I really want to have at least a hundred to give it some merit.

 

[Capt_Cully]

I have no plans to go into this Willy-Nilly. Thank you for your concise information. In my opinion AND experience with reefs, maybe's and probably's generally spell trouble. Just because you might get lucky, doesn't mean you should risk the lives of the inhabitants we INTEND to CARE for.

I am planning on going ONE SPECIES only. I just haven't decided on pipes or SH's. The tank was originally purchased for SH's. It was the only way I could get it by the wife. So I'm guessing that's the way I'm gonna have to go.

Being more of a corallophillic peron (if that's a word), I'm more interested in the non-crawlly inverts I'll be housing. Looking forward to the divergence from SPS (and many LPS sp.). That said, I plan on getting ALL of my inhabitants from the same supplier at the same time.

Questions:

How many SH for this tank? (likely be erectus)
If I get clearance for pipes, what would be hardiest, easiest in a group, and how many?

Thank you so much, everyone has been very hospitable and kind!!!

Mark

 

[pledosophy]

Always new you to be a responsible Keeper Capt.

If you go with seahorses I'd go with 4 or 6 depending on how many corals and if you want other fish at all. If it is just seahorses and you are going to be diligent about the maintence then you could go with 8 erectus.

I've never kept pipes in larger groups so no help, sorry. I never noticed any issues with the ones I do keep though.

If your looking for some more info on tank mates a few friends and I put this together

http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/tankmates/tankmates.shtml

HTH
Kevin

 

[Capt_Cully]

When you say larger groups of pipes, what did you mean? Which type did you keep and how many?

thanks

 

[pledosophy]

I have kept dragons, blue stripes, and banded pipes, and alligators all in groups of two (not together) at a store I was working with for awhile.

I have never kept pipes myself at home.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Got the OK from the wife for pipes. Actually her suggestion.

Can anyone else chime in on how many pipes I can keep in a 70gal? I'm thinking I'm going with multibandeds.

 

[Capt_Cully]

FW testing plumbing today:

HOB fuge:

Sump underneath also has fuge for maximum pod production.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Finally scored some LR for this pig. Just got done aquascaping with about 35lbs of tonga. Gonna wait til the crud settles, then I'll post pics. Came out great if I do say so my damn self.

 

[Capt_Cully]

I envision it filled with softies and plenty of places for a few pipes to hunt and hide.

right side long view:

left side long view:

Skimmer working overtime. This is less than 24hrs with mostly cured LR: