Newbie mcTank'erson needs advice

J

jezzeaepi

New member
Hello everyone, Ive been reading the board for atleast several hours a day for the passed few weeks in order to do research for my tank, and now that I think Ive decided on everything to order, I wanted to run it passed the more experienced reefers to make sure Im not setting myself up for problems.

Tank:
40 gallon sea clear on a nice stand. I live on the 3rd floor in an apartment so there really isnt much of an option for going bigger. I managed to find the tank slightly used locally for $150 at that included the stand, some lights I can transfer to my big FW tank back home, some random buckets, and a AC200 that I can plug in when I want to run activated carbon. There was a fairly new heater with it too, but I am not very trusting of many heater companies and espcially not a used one. I can use it to heat my water change water I guess.

Water:
Since its only a 40 gallon tank, and I have a LFS a couple blocks away, Ill just purchase my salt water at 75cents a gallon from them. I live in an apartment so a RODI unit sittin around pumping water into a bunch of trash cans isnt an option really due to space constraints.

Lighting:
I decided to go with PC lighting since I suck at woodworking and any hood that I made would look so tacky in my living room. Id rather just get a metal PC hood that I can easily set up in 5 mins and looks classier. I ended up purchasing a catalina aquariums hood off ebay. Although it was a good bit more expensive then the cheapo jebo's flooding the market at $165 shipped, it came with a 5 year ballast warranty and a 1 year warranty on the entire unit. It has one 96W 10k, and one 96W "actinc". It is my understanding that this should be fine for most things, just not sps or clams, which is fine with me.

Skimming:
Based on recomdations on this board, I went with a Remora w/skimmer box. It was about 6 month used, but I can still replace the power head on it and still be ahead of the reg price by like 60 bucks or so. The maxijet1200 seems to be what everyon uses, or should I look into something better? Noise is a bit of a concern so I'll pay extra for something quiet.

Temp Control:
I live in seattle and dont plan on running MH so I dont forsee any scenario that would require a chiller. In the FW world I have always used ebo-jagers on all my tanks and was planning on orering a 200W for this tank. I have never heard of anyones tank getting cooked by an ebo so unless there is a "safer" brand I think I will stick with that. Often I see people recomend two heaters, but I dont want to clutter the already cluttered back of my tank even more, throw away 20 bucks(that could be better spent elsewhere), and add another component that will need to be maintined/replaced/etc.

Water Flow:
My research thus far has led me to believe that I am looking for atleast a 30x flow rate in my tank. Although I may add a fuge in the future, for now it will have to be done entirely through powerheads. I was thinking of doing two SEIO 620's in the back of the tank pointing at opposite corners, which would give me 30x + whatever the skimmer counts as.

Testing:
I was looking at getting a http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9957&N=2004+113761 (specially since its on sale!) Unless someone has something bad to say about them, looks like a good deal to me.
For testing water parameters, is there any brand that you recomend? Possiply a good kit that just has what I need so I am not paying for a bunch of things I wont use? I am very familiar with FW water testing, but not so much with salt water. From the looks of it the "needed" ones are amonia/nitrites/nitrates/PH/Alkhalinity/Calcium . The rest are kind of a mystery to me. Are there any others that I will need to test frequently? If anyone had a basic testing regiment they wished to share Id be interested in reading it.

Buffering/dosing:
This is what I defintly know the least about. If anyone could point me to some articles it would be appreciated.

As far as live rock/live sand is concerned, I will be ordering "the package" from TBS(although probably the 30 gallon sized one). I really dont care to contribute in anyway to the destruction of the reefs around the world. Unless im missing something there is only floridaliverocks, TBS, and a place in fiji that aquaculture rock rather then blasting/chiseling etc.
I chose TBS because it seems to be a good deal once you include the clean up crew. Their method of shipping is by far superior imo as things get to stay in water when shipped. Even though the gulf rock isnt available right now, they keys rock is pretty good from what Ive read. I am prepared to deal with the bad hitchikers as I think they are worth it considering all Ive heard about the good hitchhikers that are also present. It sounds like a blast groing through your rock and finding a huge array of life forms. I just dont think Id be satisfied ordering rock from anywhere else really. Ive seen whats in the LFS around ehre and uhmm.. NOOOOooooo.. TBS please for the same price hehe.


Well if youve made it this far, thanks for reading and I look forward to your input.

Jesse
 
You will need access to a source of RO-DI water, or something equally pure. The LFS probably sells that?

I've had numerous heaters fail on me, including an Ebo-Jager, so I use two heaters plus the "Hofer thermal shield" described on seabay.org. Lost my royal gramma to a dead heater, sigh.
 
Jesse,

Not everything you wrote looks good.

First, the water flow rate, where did you come up with the 30x flow rate? The correct turn over rate should be no less then 6X and no more then 10X the total water volume. So, in your case it should be 240GPH to 400GPH, the higher the better but no more then 400GPH. If you do 30X time then your are looking at 1200GPH, that 's way to fast for a 40g tank don't you think?

What is your main filtration system, the AC200?

I don't use skimmer on any of my tanks big or small so I have nothing to say.

Use sealab #28 trace element bloc, you won't have to dos anything. 1 bloc a month will do fine on a 40G tank, cover the bloc with sand so it doesn't dissolve to fast.
If you have room for some PH rock it would be much easier to maintain your ph at 8.4.
 
Lots of people use high flow (30x or higher) for Acropora.

I'd stay away from the SeaLab blocks, myself. They are uncontrolled dosing, and I won't do that. The chemistry forum has more on this product.
 
Ok then I am totally confused. Everything that Ive read here seem to point to 30x flow rate being pretty good if you want to go with a mixed reef. Being that they will be in the back pointing forward(to opposite corners), I figured the rock should block some of the flow and create some lower flow areas towards the front of the tank(for stuff that prefers 10-20x flow). Can someone please ellaborate on this for me?


For filtration I had planned on running the skimmer and 60+ pounds of live rock.

Bertoni: What kind of dosing product do you use?
 
Your tank might well have some pockets of lower flow. That depends on the setup of your rock. The total flow seems reasonable to me, but there are lots of opinions. I run my tanks all at 10-15x at this time (lots of low-flow corals). 1200gph in your tank would be fine for Acropora and the like.

For a 40g tank, some B-Ionic is a good way to get started on Ca and alkalinity. Later, you can switch to a cheaper approach, if you want. You shouldn't need to dose anything else for a while, if ever.

This book is very handy in planning corals for a tank (and vice versa):

[ericsbook]
 
Just for thought you may want to think about a RO/DI unit as will pay for its self after about 200 gal. Also you need to use a QT tank for all things going into your tank that is the only way to make sure that you do not get ICH parisite in your tank here is a great link to explain.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/quarantine.html

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html
 
The only reason people think using trace element bloc is uncontroll dosing is because they don't know how to use it. If you simply place the bloc on top of the sand bed or LR, it disolve very quickly; less then a week the whole bloc would be gone. But, if you cover the bloc with sand, it will disolve very slowly over a period of months. Not to mention way less expensive then anything else on the market.

30X flow rate is dead wrong, everybody seem to believe you need high flow rate to keep LPS and SPS coral; that's not true. I maintain and setup tanks part time, my 200g coral holding tank is running at 1600gph flow rate, I have no pump of any kind inside the tank. The tank is 10' long, 4' wide and 16" high, I run no skimmer, no filter, (I do have about 200lb of sand & 300lb of LR in tank) only a big canister to hold about 100lb of pH adjuestment rock to buffer the pH at 8.4 and Ca at 600ppm (too much Ca you say?), wrong again.

I have all kind of soft, hard and sps coral in tank, I dos nothing other then place 3 bloc of trace element bloc every 2 to 3 month. I feed the corals every 3 days, I got no problem what so ever. So much for "high flow rate" on sps & acropora.
 
Well, that's your experience. Lower flow might be fine; others would disagree.

Wherever you place the Sea-Lab blocks, they are dissolving at some random pace, without any control. I wouldn't do it. It might work well for you, though.

I don't think Ca at 600 would cause any problems, although it might lead to some extra abiotic precipitation, which could waste some supplement, if that matters.
 
skylab1 said:
I have all kind of soft, hard and sps coral in tank, I dos nothing other then place 3 bloc of trace element bloc every 2 to 3 month. I feed the corals every 3 days, I got no problem what so ever. So much for "high flow rate" on sps & acropora.
Click to expand...


This is your experience, and I would venture to say that your setup is either perfectly balanced some how or simply a fluke.

You are running a true mixed reef, which is probably benefiting from lower flow, but you fail to mention which SPS you are keeping. I am keeping SPS very successfully under low flow (17x), but it happens to be a very hardy A. microthalma which does not need the flow that some other SPS needs.

Just keep in mind, because it is working for you, does not mean it will work for everyone, and that tell people that "30X flow rate is dead wrong" is in fact wrong on your part since several (by that I mean more than one) are doing it just fine. More flow is very beneficial for stony corals which are commonly found on the front side of the reef where water flows at a tremendous rate.
 
skylab1 said:
I maintain and setup tanks part time, my 200g coral holding tank is running at 1600gph flow rate, I have no pump of any kind inside the tank.
Click to expand...

So what is the average residence time in your 200g holding tank?
 
Although i do respect your experiences, seeing as thy have undoubtedly worked well for you, I am still a bit skeptical. Doesnt the ocean move at a much higher rate then your tank? I would assume that the ocean would move at a rate even hgiher then the 30x that would be in my tank. I just read a thread here the other day and most of the posters recomended anywhere from 15-50x flow rate, considerably higher then 8x.
Any one else care to share their personal experience?
 
Just for clarification, are you talking turnover rate in the tank, or thru the sump, the two can be quite different. IMO, you want hi flow rate "in" the tank, but much lower "thru" your sump. 30x in the tank is good, not so good thru the sump.

I thought that the sea lab blocks were said to be mostly plaster, and not much in trace elements.
 
This is in the tank. I dont have a sump or refugium. In the future I will probably set up some sort of DIY refugium, but at present time I am not concerned with that(I have enough projects on my hands hehe).

As previously stated, I do have an extra ac 200. How often to people run activated carbon, or the phosphate absorbing pads in their tank? More filtration cant hurt, so if you have an idea that would put it to good use let me know because Im sort of at a loss as too how often I should us it with what.

Oh and I ordered that coral book as well, cant wait for it to get here =)
 
Jesse,

I am glad you ask this such excellent question, and the answer is No.

Have you ever watch an under water film of coral reef, did you ever notice a large volume of water jet through the reef continuously? The answer is no. The current inside the reef are very steady and slow, the only time youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll see a fast moving current in or around coral reef is during a storm. Now, if the coral living in their natural environment are surviving in a steady moving current, what make you think the coral in your tank need fast moving water jetting through the tank all day long? The answer is THEY DONââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢T. (Anyone think the water in the reef is moving fast you better have your eyes check!) 1200gph of water moving inside a little 40g tank, is like a hurricane moving through a coral reef every day, do you think this is good for the animals that are going to be living in that tank? Think about it.

And just to clarify, the flow rate inside the tank, through the sump or filter are all the same, no less the 6X of the total water volume and no more then 10X the total water volume.

Now moving on to carbon, most people either run their carbon too short period of time or donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have enough of carbon. The correct amount of carbon need for each tank can be calculated by this formula (.176 X the total volume of water). In your case youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll need about 7 lbs of carbon. Most people run a little bag of carbon, what do you thing that little bag of carbon is going to do for your tank, NOT A THING, not enough carbon and too short of time.

Activated carbon should be run 24/7, the carbon can take out chemical and biological compound present in the water that are bad, and carbon also has the largest available surface area for bacteria to colonize. In term, you are running a chemical and biological filter as your main filtration system. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have carbon in the reef tank; the lab grade tri-base carbon I use would have made the water so clean that is actually bad for the corals. However, on my fish holding tank I use only lab grade tri-base carbon inside a canister filter with the flow rate at 10x the water volume, and pH rock on a second canister filter to buffer pH. And I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t run skimmer either.

Too much filtration can actually hurt your tank, you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want be less and you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to do too much, you want to be just right.

And just right is never wrong.
 
"1200gph of water moving inside a little 40g tank, is like a hurricane moving through a coral reef every day, do you think this is good for the animals that are going to be living in that tank? Think about it. "

I did think about. I looked at several others tanks and looked at their flow rate. I in fact saw many other tanks on this board with 30x+ flow. It was a lot harder for me to find tanks with 8x flow actually.

As far as what your saying about carbon, it doesnt make a lot of sense. Where are you arriving at this magical .176pounds/gallon number? I have never heard of such an amount needed in order for it to "work". That number would also have to have some element of time.

It is my understanding that activated carbon has an "amount" it can absorb before all of its open pores are clogged and it becomes full and no longer does you any good in terms of chemical filtration. If you continue to replace carbon at the rate it is clogged/filled I see no reason why it would not "work".

As far as its biological filtration is concerned, I dont see how you could possibly apply a number(.176) to an aquariums filtration need. The filtration need is going to depend on bio load(fish,coral,feeding regiment,temp,etc), amount of surface area already available on the sand and its granual size, type of LR(porosity, amount of life present, amount of bacteria present), amount of FLOW through/around the rock, and many other factors. I dont know how one could possibly assume all of these and assign one number.

" what do you thing that little bag of carbon is going to do for your tank, NOT A THING, not enough carbon and too short of time. "

Well I am pretty sure people think that it will do the chemical filtration which it is desgined to do, which is "take out chemical and biological compound present in the water that are bad". You can't use carbon for BOTH chemical and biological filtration. How do you plan on ever replacing the carbon if thats where all your nitrifying bacteria are living? Sounds like youd be putting your tank through a mini cycle every time you went to change out your nonactive carbon for some that is active.

You say that it pulls out "chemical and biological compound present in the water that are bad." Well as much as I'd like to have confidence that it only takes out bad things, I know it can just as easily take out good things too. What are these good things that it can possibly take out? Same with the pad that removes phosphates, what good stuff will that remove?

My main reasons for choosing the seio 620's were the low operating watts(8), durability, mounting options, and its wide stream(as opposed to the more focused maxi jet style streams). Its also somewhat flow adjustable so I could probably tone it down to 25x flow rate which once couple with my rocks blocking flow, corals blocking flow, flows hitting flows and creating turbulant zones(which I hear is good to have some of, not just a steady slow flow all around), etc will create areas of lower flow in some areas for corals that like that, and higher flows in other areas for corals that like that.

Anyone else care to comment on the flow or the chemical filtration medias?
 
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