nitrate overload.

reefwreck

no i didnt clean the sand. i didnt know i should have at the time.
man that stuff stunk to high heavens when he gave it to me too.
thinking about aragonite and not sand.
ok its mainly a fish only tank but i do have some mushrooms in there. they must like the nitrate because they are bloomed bigger than ive ever seen them. if i pull everything out and go get the stuff i want, rinse and install it tonight, if i save the water, it stands to reason the nitrates would be way lower than before.
by doing this would i risk losing fish and crabs? wouldnt i be starting the nit. cycle all over again?
 
If the sand was of good quality (or good decision making) it should be aragonite sand, not silica play sand. If it's silica, get it out ASAP as it's nothing but trouble.

Mushrooms don't really give much of a carp about high nitrates. I've seen them and RBTAs surprisingly enough live in pretty rancid conditions in FOWLR tanks.

The nitrogen cycle should continue in the live rock. Hence why it's live. I would rinse out the sand and start a shallow sand bed. If it's coral/aragonite/calcium based media, it can hold phosphates in it for quite some time, but nitrates it won't make a difference with.

Any time you're disturbing your tank, you're risking losing a fish or crab. That being said, I'm surprised the crabs are surviving your high nitrates as it is. Are you having algae problems? If not, I would try a different test kit before doing all of this work, just to make sure your nitrates are correctly being measured. Try a salifert kit or something. API are great too, but I think that's what you're already using. maybe it's even an old test kit that's expired and isn't accurate. Who knows.
 
reef

the tank looked like shiot when i got it. very dirty and stunk like crazy. the guy that had it didnt take good care of it.
the sand is that blk and white stuff you see at petsmart.
i want to use caribsea aragonite, which is a little bigger than regular sand. is this good stuff? im suprised they are still alive too. the crabs.
my algae is ok. did have a bunch on the back glass. im not up on my algae types but it was a fuzzy brown/green looking stuff.
i had the red algae and had o treat my tank twice. two weeks in a row. i think its all gone now. wasnt very bad but there was enough. im guessing the guy that i got the tank from had a issue too as he already had stuff to treat it with when he gave me the tank. the fuzzy stuff on the back seems to be going away on its own. no thanks to any of the snails either.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15005491#post15005491 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
or get rid of the sand bed entirely!
Click to expand...
That will not make that goby too happy.
You should really take EVERYTHING out of the tank though and RINSE OUT THAT SAND! just to get the accumulated crap out of it. It'll mess up the biological filtration, but whatever, you'll be better off if you never cleaned it out after getting the tank from your friend.
Click to expand...
Rinsing the sand brings it back to square one. If you suggest the sand should never have been cleaned in the first place then it would be unwise to do it again.

The detritus in the lower levels of a bed are those refractory organics I mentioned. They are usually stable and do not add a burden on the overall tank bioload as they can take a year or more to be reduced by any biological activity. Left in place they pose no undo hazard to the tank.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15005491#post15005491 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
I recommend doing some reading of the FAQs in the beginner forum.
Click to expand...
Always a good idea.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15005663#post15005663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
If the sand was of good quality (or good decision making) it should be aragonite sand, not silica play sand. If it's silica, get it out ASAP as it's nothing but trouble.
Click to expand...
I agree that aragonite is best but there are many reefkeepers with a DSB composed of silica sand that don't seem to have problems as long as the particle size is granular sugar size or smaller.
 
WK, you're the man, so I'm just kinda trying to figure out what I knew differently, if we're contradicting on anything.

I didn't think that the main biological filter in the tank would be in the sand. It certainly could be, but if he disturbed the sand in the last few months, it would have had to restart its cycling anyway I would imagine, I guess if disturbed enough.

The reason I would rinse the sand isn't because of the bottom layer of organics, but more because you don't know if his friend was a consistent over-feeder or what not, or didn't have high flow. Either of those cases would see the top layer of sand (or even middle to bottom layers because of the movement from the engineer goby) possibly chock full of decaying nutrients from extra food or detritus, which would add significantly to the nitrate formation and/or algae fueling in the tank. Just a thought..

I was reading in calfo's "Book of Coral Propagation" about how silica sand provides more surface area for nitrifying bacteria to produce on, as well as jagged edges which would allow more detritus or organic waste to build up in it, and is very uncomfortable if not irritating to sand burying fishes. Dunno, that's where I got the idea that it would be best to change out sand bed.

Sure, for a RDSB you could use it, but I would still recommend aragonite for its slow buffering capabilities (saved my tank on more than one occasion).
 
ok the aragonite i have (still in bag) is larger than surgar crystals. is this good stuff or no? im gonna read the FAQ's on the newbie forum this evening. it was writen by waterkeeper and should be chock full of good info. (so ya got a fish tank) i saw a naboo reference. lol this has got to be good. might even shoot ya a PM waterkeeper if thats ok. wont take up much of your time.
im sure your busy with tons of PM's already.
 
Wreck,

It all boils down to surface area and its exposure to oxygenated water. Sand have many times the surface area of an equivalent weight of rock so it provides far more area for bacteria to form a biofilm. The attached biofilm on a surface does not grow forever and, when it reaches a certain point, it is discarded and tends to die off. This give an advantage to a sandbed as it can support a greater biomass. On the other hand, the rock has almost continuous exposure to oxygenated water over its entire surface area. This makes it more efficient for the initial breakdown of the dissolved organic loading in the water column. It also contains a healthy population of coralline that uptake phosphate and nitrate. Sand must process nitrate through the denitrification process and has limited phosphate removal ability. The two media work in concert to process wastes and are a compliment to each other.

Some waste cannot be removed no matter what the process is. Things like phosphates and metals are don't disappear and accumulate in the tank. Also, as each level in the food chain consumes a waste, it removes energy value from the organic and they become harder to process, refractory is the fancy term. These condense into a sludge that accumulates in the bed. The metals usually get tied up as sulfides and the refractory products decay very slowly over time. This makes the debris relatively inert and unavailable for causing water quality problems. Phosphates are the main drawback as they tend to reenter the water column and can become a nutrient sink in the tank. Thankfully, a good GFO can sequester them and allow for removal. It is a complex system and is not fully understood even by oceanographers.

Very true about silica sands. The sharp edges can harm even smaller organisms and impair sand grain movement. Aragonite is always a better choice as you stated. When Southdown Play sand was withdrawn from the market, reefkeepers were left without a cheap source of aragonite and many turned to various silica based sands. The original fear was that they would leach silica into the water column, which is untrue. That issue being solved, more people tried fine silica sand and the DSB seemed to function pretty much the same as the aragonite beds. They may cause some loss of buffering capability in the water column but that is fairly easy to correct. I still always say to use aragonite sands but it is not a fatal flaw to use a silicate.

Rick,

How much bigger and is it uniform in size?

:lol: I just compiled the FAQ thread. Only a small portion of it is my stuff and some of that is pretty out of date. As far as PM's; I always feel it is best to post things on a thread. That way you get more feedback than you do from a single source. This thread is a good example and it getting plenty of feedback. That is a good thing IMO.
 
waterkeeper

you are correct. maybe another newbie along the way will learn from my situation.
ok the sand is caribsea aragonite. its about the size of table salt with shells here and there mixed in. this is the only way ive seen it come as when i went around comparing prices it all looked the same.

ok lets start from the top. it seems i might have to change my sand to help lower the trates. i guess by not cleaning the sand before i set this tank back up has caused me problems. maybe some over feeding plays a role too. so it seems i gotta break this tank down and start over.

i have 5 fish and about 10 crabs and 10 snails.
theres roughly 20-25lbs of live rock in the tank.
im running a hang on power filter that contains a biowheel, a super skimmer,
and two power heads control the flow.

ok i figure i got to buy a tub from wally world and put my fish,crabs and LR in.
next i empty the tank water into the tub, add the above.
take the tank and empty it. clean it real good.
next with tank in place i need to add the new sand. before i do that i need ro rinse it. ok whats the best method to do this?
ok with sand rinsed do i add it first or put in LR then sand?
ok im guessing that i add 1/2 the water thats in the tube and then some premix to the tank, leaving enough for the fish in the tub. how long do i have to wait until i can add the fish?
i know with the new setup i gotta get my water conditions right. do i have to let this new setup cycle? how long should this take?
when i add the water to the new sand im sure its gonna cloud up.
how long does it take to settle normally?
ok i do know that the water temps gotta be the same from tub to tank. PH should be the same as well before i add fish and crabs.
is PH and salinity the only things i really need to check before the switch is made? while the fish is in the tub should i supply a air stone? use my power filter? my skimmer in the tub as well?
what about my power heads? ok i figure that i need the power filter in the tank to settle any cloud that may happen when i add the water to the new sand. should i just rinse the filter pad or replace it when it fills with the cloud stuff?
these questions will do for now. im planning undertaking this project sunday. trying to keep the costs to a min as my beagle is taking most of my $$. hes a spinal patient. a whole other story in itself.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15007698#post15007698 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ricksconnected
waterkeeper

you are correct. maybe another newbie along the way will learn from my situation.
ok the sand is caribsea aragonite. its about the size of table salt with shells here and there mixed in. this is the only way ive seen it come as when i went around comparing prices it all looked the same.

ok lets start from the top. it seems i might have to change my sand to help lower the trates. i guess by not cleaning the sand before i set this tank back up has caused me problems. maybe some over feeding plays a role too. so it seems i gotta break this tank down and start over.

i have 5 fish and about 10 crabs and 10 snails.
theres roughly 20-25lbs of live rock in the tank.
im running a hang on power filter that contains a biowheel, a super skimmer,
and two power heads control the flow.

ok i figure i got to buy a tub from wally world and put my fish,crabs and LR in.
next i empty the tank water into the tub, add the above.
take the tank and empty it. clean it real good.
next with tank in place i need to add the new sand. before i do that i need ro rinse it. ok whats the best method to do this?
ok with sand rinsed do i add it first or put in LR then sand?
ok im guessing that i add 1/2 the water thats in the tube and then some premix to the tank, leaving enough for the fish in the tub. how long do i have to wait until i can add the fish?
i know with the new setup i gotta get my water conditions right. do i have to let this new setup cycle? how long should this take?
when i add the water to the new sand im sure its gonna cloud up.
how long does it take to settle normally?
ok i do know that the water temps gotta be the same from tub to tank. PH should be the same as well before i add fish and crabs.
is PH and salinity the only things i really need to check before the switch is made? while the fish is in the tub should i supply a air stone? use my power filter? my skimmer in the tub as well?
what about my power heads? ok i figure that i need the power filter in the tank to settle any cloud that may happen when i add the water to the new sand. should i just rinse the filter pad or replace it when it fills with the cloud stuff?
these questions will do for now. im planning undertaking this project sunday. trying to keep the costs to a min as my beagle is taking most of my $$. hes a spinal patient. a whole other story in itself.
Click to expand...

IMO you do not need to break down your tank

suggest you purchase a mini wet vac from Home depot--under 25 dollars. Use it to suck out the old sand bed.
To introduce new argonite back--take a long piece of 2 inch pvc that will go to the bottom of the tank. Put a funnel on the opposite end and use that to introduce the new substrate back in the tank
no fuss--no bother--no mess---job done in under one half hour:D
 
ok that sounds good. i would have to remove the rock and animals first though. so how do i rinse the new sand to clear it of dust and such? from my yrs of freshwater ya gotta rinse the rocks before you put them in or dirt/dust will be everywhere. i can imagine sand to be even worse.
 
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