Nitrates = Algae but not always????

[mpderksen]

I have a mixed reef that I am VERY happy with. I have a VERY successful fuge separate from my sump that grows Cheato by the pile. My Nitrates and Phosphates are below detection by ICP test. I have a DOS doing AWC, I have stable parameters with 2-part dosing, everything controlled by an Apex.

My SPS all have fantastic extension and are growing. However, they seem pastel/pale. My LPS, including torch, hammer, Duncan etc. are about the same size as they were several years ago, and again, not the most vibrant colors. I KNOW LPS prefer some nitrates, and even SPS should have at least a few ppm, right?

So here is the primary question: I can slow down my fuge by shortening the light cycle, but as soon as I do, algae starts in the DT. However, Cheato is consuming all the nutrients that would favor coral color and growth!!!

What information do you need to help me improve the situation?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

My SPS all have fantastic extension and are growing. However, they seem pastel/pale.

This is the result of very low Nitrate (below detection by ICP test) & possibly low flux of nitrogen in general (NH3/4).
Nitrate is the end - waste product of the nitrogen cycle. Corals do not need it,,, they prefer NH3/4. Feed the fish/corals more & dose amino acids.

My LPS, including torch, hammer, Duncan etc. are about the same size as they were several years ago

PO4 is very important for growth & is the limiting factor for growth in the ocean. You want a reading at least 0.03ppm to 0.1ppm. Feed more & dose potassium phosphate at beginning of display illumination period..

So here is the primary question: I can slow down my fuge by shortening the light cycle, but as soon as I do, algae starts in the DT. However, Cheato is consuming all the nutrients that would favor coral color and growth!!!

Feed the fish/coral in the early stages of display illumination: make sure fuge light is off during display illumination.

If display algae increase from shorter fuge photo-period is mostly on glass (?) I wouldn't worry. If the algae increase is on rocks maybe use vibrant to eliminate the algae while disconnecting the fuge during treatment.

 

[mpderksen]

If display algae increase from shorter fuge photo-period is mostly on glass (?) I wouldn't worry. If the algae increase is on rocks maybe use vibrant to eliminate the algae while disconnecting the fuge during treatment.

I move SLOW when I change things. My lights is 3x AI 26 over a 6' tank, built into a hybrid fixture with 4x 60" T5 bulbs. Last Fall, I realized my T5s were 18 months old, so I ordered 4 new ones. I replaced them only 1 each week or so.
Here's where I messed up. At the same time, I saw a BRS video and got the idea to change my AI lights to the famous AB+ spectrum. MUCH hotter with tons more UV and White than I had been running. And since I had clearly lost my mind, I shortened my fuge light cycle from 12 hours (10pm to 10am) down to just 8. Given that insanity comes with stupidity, over the New Year I thought I would just run ROX carbon, even though I hadn't had that on for well over a year.
As you can guess, I developed a variety of GHA on the top-most rocks and even got some growing in the fuge. But no panic. Been doing this a while, right? SO we drain, clean and reboot the fuge, dial the LEDs back to the previous spectrum and put the T5s on only for 2 hours/day, (6-8pm instead of the 4-8pm I had been running them).
I'm going to get a PAR meter and get some REAL numbers, but in my entire time in the hobby, I've always had pale, slow growing corals, OR algae.
My feeding is limited to 1 cube of a mix of stuff (standard PetCo frozen cubes) and maybe some Spectrum pellets. I don't feed any coral food, reef chili, roids etc. In fact, I was mixing up some of that stuff, along with some AAs and never saw a difference, so I stopped.
I'm interested in 1-2 things I can start doing, SLOWLY AND CONSISTENTLY that might make a difference. How you guys can have Nitrates and no algae is a complete mystery to me....

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I move SLOW when I change things. My lights is 3x AI 26 over a 6' tank, built into a hybrid fixture with 4x 60" T5 bulbs. Last Fall, I realized my T5s were 18 months old, so I ordered 4 new ones. I replaced them only 1 each week or so.
Here's where I messed up. At the same time, I saw a BRS video and got the idea to change my AI lights to the famous AB+ spectrum. MUCH hotter with tons more UV and White than I had been running. And since I had clearly lost my mind, I shortened my fuge light cycle from 12 hours (10pm to 10am) down to just 8. Given that insanity comes with stupidity, over the New Year I thought I would just run ROX carbon, even though I hadn't had that on for well over a year.
As you can guess, I developed a variety of GHA on the top-most rocks and even got some growing in the fuge. But no panic. Been doing this a while, right? SO we drain, clean and reboot the fuge, dial the LEDs back to the previous spectrum and put the T5s on only for 2 hours/day, (6-8pm instead of the 4-8pm I had been running them).
I'm going to get a PAR meter and get some REAL numbers, but in my entire time in the hobby, I've always had pale, slow growing corals, OR algae.
My feeding is limited to 1 cube of a mix of stuff (standard PetCo frozen cubes) and maybe some Spectrum pellets. I don't feed any coral food, reef chili, roids etc. In fact, I was mixing up some of that stuff, along with some AAs and never saw a difference, so I stopped.
I'm interested in 1-2 things I can start doing, SLOWLY AND CONSISTENTLY that might make a difference.


>>>How you guys can have Nitrates and no algae is a complete mystery to me....

I run an algae scrubber & change the photo-period occasionally (testing different things out) to change in-organic nutrient levels.
I've just bought down my no3 from about 10ppm to 1.5 ppm. Been dosing a little phosphate too. No algae problems, but the algae in the scrubber grows faster.

 

[mpderksen]

Can I challenge my own knowledge here? Nitrate and Phosphate are basically plant fertilizer, right? We use a 'fuge to grow, in my case, Cheato where I want it, so I don't have other algae growing where I DON'T want it. The light over my 'fuge is a powerful, LED box with a "plant growth" spectrum (whatever that means, but it's pinkish). My DT fixture is strong in the Blue(r) ranges. All good so far, right?
But, since I've done such a "wonderful" job at creating a successful 'fuge, it's pulled pretty much all the NO3 (nitrate) out of my water. But if I slow down my 'fuge by shortening the light cycle, the NO3 will rise and be available for GHA in the DT, right?
However, I have not used my GFO/Carbon reactor in a few years. GFO pulls phosphate, NOT NO3, right? Could I put that back online (SLOWLY!!!) and shorten the light cycle of the 'fuge? In theory, the Phosphate will stay depressed, while some NO3 will become available for corals?
Last time I put the reactor back in, it stripped everything so fast that all my LPS suffered and I have no idea why.

Option #2 is to actually improve my feeding. Advice there is welcome as well.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Nitrate and Phosphate are basically plant fertilizer, right?

The N in nitrate, & phosphate are needed by coral to grow.

But, since I've done such a "wonderful" job at creating a successful 'fuge, it's pulled pretty much all the NO3 (nitrate) out of my water.

The nitrate is lower as a result of the algae assimilating NH3/4 "“ there is no nitrate end product with photosynthesis.

But if I slow down my 'fuge by shortening the light cycle, the NO3 will rise and be available for GHA in the DT, right?

When the Nitrate rises you get nuisance algae because it can get all the phosphate it needs from the rocks & substrate it's stored in.
Your corals can't get the phosphate this way, they can only get it from the water, but your po4 is undetectable, so they cannot compete with the nuisance algae for necessary trace elements & nutrients.
The algae wins.

So, what are you going to do to raise your phosphate levels? Read my first post.

.

 

[mpderksen]

The N in nitrate, & phosphate are needed by coral to grow.


The nitrate is lower as a result of the algae assimilating NH3/4 "“ there is no nitrate end product with photosynthesis.


When the Nitrate rises you get nuisance algae because it can get all the phosphate it needs from the rocks & substrate it's stored in.
Your corals can't get the phosphate this way, they can only get it from the water, but your po4 is undetectable, so they cannot compete with the nuisance algae for necessary trace elements & nutrients.
The algae wins.

So, what are you going to do to raise your phosphate levels? Read my first post.

.

NOW it makes sense, since I slowed down and actually digested your comments. I was confusing N03 with NH3 (reading your original post on my phone, didn't help...).

The path forward:
1. get some Potassium phosphate, but also a fresh test kit. Never dose something you can't test for, right?
2. order some Reef Chili from BRS? or maybe some Apex pellets and have them go on with the lights at noon?

I always figured the GHA would sequester any "N" and give a falsely low reading. But I'll start here for a few weeks and report back. At least, after 4 weeks, by doing very little drastic, I'm getting the DT back to normal....

 

[mpderksen]

I just ordered some fresh reagent for my HANNA PO4 ppb checker. I don't see Potassium Phosphate for sale at BRS, but I'll run the test kit before I add anything. Where do you purchase this?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I got potassium phosphate powder K2HP04, food grade on eBay, I'm in Australia.

A calculator to uses for making solution http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

 

[mpderksen]

My new HANNA reagents just showed up. 15ppb, which is 0.046ppm Phosphate. That's a decent number, right?
In the same package was some Apex AFS pellets, and I've plugged in my feeder for 2x/day pellets. I was also told by someone in our club to try turning off my skimmer during the day. I don't get a lot out of it, since my water seems super clean anyway. With the extra feeding, this could change, certainly.
My nitrate test reagents are actually expired, and I'm waiting on a kit.

More information, I have not blasted my rocks, or vacuumed my sand in about 3 years. Potential issue there?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

.046 ppm po4 is good, if accurate ?
I know of one high level hobbiest who uses the Hanna & he consistently gets lower po4 values on Triton ICP tests.
He raised po4 values based on his ICP results & cured his Cyrano problem & increased coral growth at the same time.
Don't be afraid to go up to .1 ppm using your Hanna.

If you want to turn off your skimmer for half the day (I don't run one, use GAC) leave it on during the day for gas exchange. Your algae fuge oxygenates the water at night when you illuminate it.

Cleaning the sand regularly seems to be the best practice method these days.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Just to elaborate on difference between ICP & Hanna po4 results, I would take the Hanna as more accurate.

 

[mpderksen]

Just to elaborate on difference between ICP & Hanna po4 results, I would take the Hanna as more accurate.

Genuinely curious why you would say that. I used to sell ICP systems. While the protocol for Saltwater is generally more difficult (there are newer systems that can not salt up the torch as much in the plasma stream), I would trust a lab to properly do the dilutions, replicates much more than my own ability to add some powder to "10mL". Also, the concept is that each element gives off a specific wavelength of light (and accounts for overlapping elements) I would think would be FAR more accurate on a full CCD than whatever little sensor is in my $50 HANNA.
Not to say you are wrong, but wonder what I might be missing.

Second, my buddy recommended that I only run the skimmer at night, to counter act the pH effects of the 'fuge. You seem to indicate the opposite. My pH is moving between 8.4-8.3. My Alk 2-part is dosed on the hour (1.5mL/hour) and I can see the little spikes in Fusion when it happens. The Cheato produces CO2 at night, acidifying a little. I would think I should add the O2 (by running the skimmer) at night, while this is happening, right? I can try it both ways, and see what my pH graph looks like.

Michael

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Genuinely curious why you would say that.
Michael

Rick Mathew at the other forum did numerous tests. He found that the po4 drops considerably in the sample water container over a few days, so by the time it's ICP tested you get a different reading to the water in the tank.


Quote
"One hypothesis is that the Bio-Active samples from the tank are forming a thin bio-film on the sides of the containers that over time adsorb the organic phosphate their by reducing the amount of PO4 in the water being tested. This is only one of several possible explanations yet to be explored."

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Second, my buddy recommended that I only run the skimmer at night, to counter act the pH effects of the 'fuge. You seem to indicate the opposite. My pH is moving between 8.4-8.3. My Alk 2-part is dosed on the hour (1.5mL/hour) and I can see the little spikes in Fusion when it happens. The Cheato produces CO2 at night, acidifying a little. I would think I should add the O2 (by running the skimmer) at night, while this is happening, right? I can try it both ways, and see what my pH graph looks like.

Michael

I assumed that you ran the fudge at night.
I would run the fudge opposite to the skimmer.

In any case I'm just making suggestions. The decisions are up to you my friend.

 

[mpderksen]

Rick Mathew at the other forum did numerous tests. He found that the po4 drops considerably in the sample water container over a few days, so by the time it's ICP tested you get a different reading to the water in the tank.


Quote
"One hypothesis is that the Bio-Active samples from the tank are forming a thin bio-film on the sides of the containers that over time adsorb the organic phosphate their by reducing the amount of PO4 in the water being tested. This is only one of several possible explanations yet to be explored."

That TOTALLY makes sense. I bet if I had an ICP in my garage the story would be different, but that's a HUGE difference right there!

I assumed that you ran the fudge at night.

So I had a fundamental brain error. 'fuges UPTAKE CO2 when the the macro is respiring, right? It's kinda the primary role of balance between plants and animals. DUH! Totally my bad.
Yes, I DO run the 'fuge lights from 10pm to 10am, which means the Cheato is producing OXYGEN at night. So if the skimmer adds O2 to the water, clearly I should run it during the day.

Really appreciate you walking me through this. Sometimes I seriously over-think, and then other times I find you would assume I haven't had a thought in my brain at all.

I did get a fresh Nyos Nitrate kit today. I did it twice. As expected, I got "no detectable" Nitrate. The algae is growing MUCH slower on the back and front glass. Also, the GHA tufts on the rocks are smaller. I'm going at this super slow, but my Cheato ball has tripled in the last 2 weeks. Grown to the size of a volleyball.
my AFS is now on line, and dropping about 2 dozen pellets at Noon and 3:00pm, each in an effort to increase fish waste. Next testing date will be Saturday.

Cheers,

MD

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Glad to be of help.
Again, just make sure you have a phosphate reading, 0.05 to 0.1ppm, & don't worry about the low NO3, so long as you are feeding plenty the corals will use the N from ammonia emitted from the fishes gills.

 

[wildman926]

I run an algae scrubber & change the photo-period occasionally (testing different things out) to change in-organic nutrient levels.

No algae problems, but the algae in the scrubber grows faster.

Same here, and very successful at it. I grow hair algae where I want to. Hair algae is inevitable due to feeding the tank, so grow it where you want it to be.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Same here, and very successful at it. I grow hair algae where I want to. Hair algae is inevitable due to feeding the tank, so grow it where you want it to be.

Is it hair alga that's growing or a form of Ulva?

 

[mpderksen]

3/14/2020:
HANNA reads 2ppb, or about 1ppm Phosphate
Alk 9.2 (Red Sea 0.66ml titration)
Nitrate below detection with new Nyos kit

Cheato grown to completely fill the 'fuge. Still some GHA in the DT, but not growing, just hanging in there.
Pellets auto-fed twice daily, 1 cube frozen/night.