Nitrates & Phosphates
- Thread starter jasony816
- Start date
They are different ions, but both can feed algal blooms. Phosphate can interfere with stony coral growth by limiting calcium carbonate production.
Those numbers seem quite reasonable for a tank. They might be enough to cause serious issues with SPS, particularly the phosphate.
Those numbers seem quite reasonable for a tank. They might be enough to cause serious issues with SPS, particularly the phosphate.
jason, the absolute values comparatively between the two are not as important as the range. Nitrates are common between 0-10ppm with phosphates between 0.01-0.5ppm or so.
Water changes will help keep both in check while running GFO will help reduce your phosphates. Randy has a bunch of useful articles on this subject at the top of the Reef Central Forum.
Water changes will help keep both in check while running GFO will help reduce your phosphates. Randy has a bunch of useful articles on this subject at the top of the Reef Central Forum.
Frogmanx82
New member
The big difference is that nitrates are generated by livestock as the ammonia they produce is broken down. Phosphates come from stuff we put in the tank, either from the water if we don't use RODI or food.
Both can also be reduced with carbon dosing and algae scrubbing.
Nitrates can be removed by further bacterial action inside live rock. Phosphates won't undergo bacterial reduction.
You won't be able to remove nitrates chemically. Phosphates can be removed by chemical adsorption such as GFO.
Both can also be reduced with carbon dosing and algae scrubbing.
Nitrates can be removed by further bacterial action inside live rock. Phosphates won't undergo bacterial reduction.
You won't be able to remove nitrates chemically. Phosphates can be removed by chemical adsorption such as GFO.
Here are a few articles that may be of interest:
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=2276
http://web.archive.org/web/20030510...iers+--+Biochemistry+of+Aquaria&RecordNo=3090
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm
Nitrate (NO3) can be introduced in replacement water and foods and from the process of decay via the nitrogen cycle. Uneaten food and excretions by organisms whereby they release excess nitrogen in the form of ammonia for example and organic material which when it decays ultimately contribute nitrate ,inorganic phosphate(PO4).
Using granulated organic carbon and other media such as Sea Chem purigen can bind some organic material before it breaks down preventing nitrate and inorganic phosphate from being released.Skimming also removes some of it.Mechanical filtration can help too if regular cleaning of the filter material is done. GFO, granulated ferric oxide and other binders or flocculants can be used to reduce PO4( inorganic phosphate).
Dosing a source of extra organic carbon (vodka, vinegar,glucose, etc) enables bacterial growth. This technique is still largely experimental. The bacteria can take up inorganic nitrogen and phosphate . Essentially, inorganic phosphate and nitrogen is bound in organic material which can be removed via binding agents such as granulated activated carbon or skimming. Some of the bacteria may be consumed as food by organisms in the tank. Anaerobic bacterial activity may also benefit from the extra carbon, enhancing the denitrification segment of the nitrogen cycle where the oxygen from the NO3 is used for energy is used by these bacteria to reduce the NO3 to nitrogen gas.
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=2276
http://web.archive.org/web/20030510...iers+--+Biochemistry+of+Aquaria&RecordNo=3090
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm
Nitrate (NO3) can be introduced in replacement water and foods and from the process of decay via the nitrogen cycle. Uneaten food and excretions by organisms whereby they release excess nitrogen in the form of ammonia for example and organic material which when it decays ultimately contribute nitrate ,inorganic phosphate(PO4).
Using granulated organic carbon and other media such as Sea Chem purigen can bind some organic material before it breaks down preventing nitrate and inorganic phosphate from being released.Skimming also removes some of it.Mechanical filtration can help too if regular cleaning of the filter material is done. GFO, granulated ferric oxide and other binders or flocculants can be used to reduce PO4( inorganic phosphate).
Dosing a source of extra organic carbon (vodka, vinegar,glucose, etc) enables bacterial growth. This technique is still largely experimental. The bacteria can take up inorganic nitrogen and phosphate . Essentially, inorganic phosphate and nitrogen is bound in organic material which can be removed via binding agents such as granulated activated carbon or skimming. Some of the bacteria may be consumed as food by organisms in the tank. Anaerobic bacterial activity may also benefit from the extra carbon, enhancing the denitrification segment of the nitrogen cycle where the oxygen from the NO3 is used for energy is used by these bacteria to reduce the NO3 to nitrogen gas.
So Nitrates is a by product from fish and Phosphates is a by product of things we put in the tank like food, salt, and water. To remove P04 we can use chemicals like GFO to bind them and for N03 we can use macroalgae, dsb, or water changes to reduce them. They are related as they both contribute to algae problems. I just want to make sure that my parameters are within acceptable range as I always thought that if P04 is 0 - <0.5 that N03 would be 0 and was abit confused after getting those results from water testing couple times to double check.
For a system with a lot of stony corals, I would want phosphate to be below 0.03 ppm (very low) and nitrate preferably reading zero.
Nitrate can and will be produced from food dumped into the tank, either directly by bacteria or via a fish eating and excreting it. Phosphate is released the same way, usually, although contaminated live rock can release it. Both can be removed by bacterial growth and skimming.
Nitrate can and will be produced from food dumped into the tank, either directly by bacteria or via a fish eating and excreting it. Phosphate is released the same way, usually, although contaminated live rock can release it. Both can be removed by bacterial growth and skimming.
No, both nitrate and phosphate result from foods and waste and unfiltered water.
Low PO4 does not indicate nitrate will be low or high for that matter.They have no relationship in that sense. PO4 of 0 to <.5 doesn't tell you anything about nitrate levels. In fact the opposite may be true if PO4 is actually absent nitrate might rise. But true zero phosphate in very unlikely in a reef.
0.5ppm phosphate is high. 0.25ppm is usually considered a critical high point for stony corals including lps and much lower for sps. My sps do well at around 0.05ppm PO4 although 0.03ppm would be better. Nitrate is 2.5ppm to 5ppm and a mix of corals do well at this level. Lower may be more desireable for sps onlly tanks. I believe the level for a natural reef is >0.2ppm but not all corals come from the high reef and some such as leathers and discoma seem to enjoy some nitrate.
Both nitrate and inorganic phosphate(PO4) contribute to nuisance algae but at elevated levels they cause other problems too. Nitrate can fuel overgrowth in zooxanthelae leading to problems with too much oxygen production and coral bleaching as well as coral browning. PO4 at high levels inhibits teh coral's ability to calcify and stesses it.
Frogmanx82
New member
Nitrates are an unavoidable consequence of the waste products of living things in the tank. They can of course also be present in unfiltered make up water and food, but controlling that will not make up for the fact that bioload is the principle source of nitrates in a tank.
It is my understanding phosphates are not produced in the same manner. Can phosphates be controlled soley by using RODI and non phosphate containing foods? This assumes you're not leaching anything from the rock or sand.
You are welcome,
As Jonathan noted rtn and stn are not well understood. A variety of factors may contribute, including but not necessarily limited to: alkalinity, ph, hypoxic conditions, flow, sg,bacterial activity, temperature,organic carbon buildup, a lack of consumable food,alelopathic ot other toxins, high nitrate and/ or high phosphate.
High nitrate and /or high inorganic phosphate(PO4) do ,however, cause difficulties in excessive zooxanthelae production perhaps increasing oxygen in the coral to unhealthy llevels and in the case of PO4 inhibit calcification. These stressors could trigger stn or rtn particularly in combination with another underlying problem but I don't know have anyway of knowing that. FWIW,in my past experience when nitrates climbed over 30ppm and/or PO4 over 0.3ppm stony corals darkened and closed their polyps and sps eventually exhibited stn or rtn.
As Jonathan noted rtn and stn are not well understood. A variety of factors may contribute, including but not necessarily limited to: alkalinity, ph, hypoxic conditions, flow, sg,bacterial activity, temperature,organic carbon buildup, a lack of consumable food,alelopathic ot other toxins, high nitrate and/ or high phosphate.
High nitrate and /or high inorganic phosphate(PO4) do ,however, cause difficulties in excessive zooxanthelae production perhaps increasing oxygen in the coral to unhealthy llevels and in the case of PO4 inhibit calcification. These stressors could trigger stn or rtn particularly in combination with another underlying problem but I don't know have anyway of knowing that. FWIW,in my past experience when nitrates climbed over 30ppm and/or PO4 over 0.3ppm stony corals darkened and closed their polyps and sps eventually exhibited stn or rtn.
There are no phosphate free foods that I know of. Phosphate along with nitrogen and organic carbon are bound up in the organic material that foods are made of and living organisms need all three of these. Both nitrate and inorganic phosphate are added to the tank when these organics break down.
There shouldn't be a phosphate free food, or it will lack in proteins and other needed nutrients. But you might avoid foods with bones or bone meal or fish meal or whole fish, as they will add a lot of extra phosphate in the bone structure.
This has more on where it comes from:
Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners,
Part 4: What Chemicals May Detrimentally Accumulate
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php
This has more on where it comes from:
Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners,
Part 4: What Chemicals May Detrimentally Accumulate
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Necessary Nutrition, Foods and Supplements, A Preliminary Investigation
http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20010720071031/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp
HighlandReefer
Team RC
I think that works well myself. Keep in mind the more food you add the more phosphate you will be adding. Overfeeding leads to problems and is probably the number one reason many hobbyists get into trouble with their reef system. It is surprising how little food fish need to remain healthy. 
Here's my reanalysis of that data:
I've calculated the phosphorus to protein ratio for these foods, and I get:
Formula Two...........................176
Formula One.............................69
Frozen Brine Shrimp................232
Frozen Plankton/Krill...............182
Golden Pearls..........................273
Lancefish.................................244
Nori..........................................221
Plankton Gold Flakes...............169
Prime Reef.................................69
Saltwater Staple......................500
Silversides...............................952
Tahitian Blend..........................318
I've calculated the phosphorus to protein ratio for these foods, and I get:
Formula Two...........................176
Formula One.............................69
Frozen Brine Shrimp................232
Frozen Plankton/Krill...............182
Golden Pearls..........................273
Lancefish.................................244
Nori..........................................221
Plankton Gold Flakes...............169
Prime Reef.................................69
Saltwater Staple......................500
Silversides...............................952
Tahitian Blend..........................318
