Nitrofurazone for treating cryptocaryon

[cngreg]

Hi Folks,
I discovered by accident that nitrofurazone at 10ppm seems to break the life cycle of cryptcaryon. I reproduced it a dozen times then for a while was treating wild caught fish this way prophylactically because of the antibacterial + anti ich combination. Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

[MrTuskfish]

I've never heard of nitrofurazone having any any anti-ich properties, I just know it as an antibiotic. No direct experience; however its very common to think the crypt life cycle has been 'broken" because whitespots disappear. Unfortunately; there are still parasites still feeding under the skin (the whitespot is not the parasite) and ich cysts just resting and waiting to release their 100's of offspring. I guess you could consider this a possible cure,only if your fish remain ich-free for at least 8 weeks. But its not really proven then either because some fish can develop temporary immunity. Maybe you're on to something; but it would take a lot of study to prove it. If you do have the cure the hobby has been searching for, and who knows you might, add some inert ingredient and patent it . The fishkeeping world will beat a path to your door.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I've been reading lately that there is on-again, off-again progress towards developing a vaccine for Crypto (Velvet too). The financial incentives are there, but IMO it would also be a mixed bag/double-edged sword. If most wholesalers decided to vaccinate all their fish then I think for awhile we'd see DD prices on everything. That would drive a lot of folks out of the hobby and discourage new ones from joining. At least until the prices came back down. I guess what would most likely happen if a vaccine were developed is most LFS would still buy from wholesalers who chose not to vaccinate to keep the prices down, while LA (and other online places) would offer both. I mean if you're willing to pay $500 for a pair of designer clowns on DD, what's another $50-100 thrown on top for vaccination?

 

[MrTuskfish]

I've been reading lately that there is on-again, off-again progress towards developing a vaccine for Crypto (Velvet too). The financial incentives are there, but IMO it would also be a mixed bag/double-edged sword. If most wholesalers decided to vaccinate all their fish then I think for awhile we'd see DD prices on everything. That would drive a lot of folks out of the hobby and discourage new ones from joining. At least until the prices came back down. I guess what would most likely happen if a vaccine were developed is most LFS would still buy from wholesalers who chose not to vaccinate to keep the prices down, while LA (and other online places) would offer both. I mean if you're willing to pay $500 for a pair of designer clowns on DD, what's another $50-100 thrown on top for vaccination?

I'm sure no scientist; but vaccines create anti-body protection. I've never heard of this being done; except with viruses and bacteria. Science still doesn't have a dog flea killer, Lyme disease vaccine, etc., etc., that works well, I wonder if the money is there to really go after fish parasites. We really are a very small community.

 

[h2so4hurts]

There is a lot of research into vaccine development for crypto. The aquaculture industry, especially in Asian countries, is extremely interested in crypto cures because the parasite can destroy entire facilities. The monetary incentive is actually very high. Here are a few papers on the subject of crypto vaccines:

Comparative studies on the immunogenicity of theronts, tomonts and trophonts of Cryptocaryon irritans in grouper
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17926065

Immune protection of Mozambique tilapia (Oreochromis mossambicus) exposed to different infectious doses of ectoparasite (Cryptocaryon irritans).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21739314

Elicited cross-protection and specific antibodies in Mozambique tilapia (Oreochromis mossambicus) against two different immobilization serotypes of Cryptocaryon irritans isolated in Hawaii.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21385614

A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117218

Additionally, science has developed plenty of potent flea killers, but as their use increases so does parasite resistance by virtue of evolution. Just like bacteria, it's a constant battle to find new active agents. It's not a "one and done" situation.

Finally, GlaxoSmithKline developed a lyme disease vaccine in 1998 AND its FDA approved. It provides protection to 76% of people who receive it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11257352

Lyme disease is also readily treatable in the early stages with standard antibiotics. Chronic infections or infections of the brain are harder to treat, but the disease rarely progresses this far, and its probably why the vaccine isn't well known. Easily treatable diseases with low mortality and low infection rates don't require vaccination.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Thanks for the links!

 

[MrTuskfish]

There is a lot of research into vaccine development for crypto. The aquaculture industry, especially in Asian countries, is extremely interested in crypto cures because the parasite can destroy entire facilities. The monetary incentive is actually very high. Here are a few papers on the subject of crypto vaccines:

Comparative studies on the immunogenicity of theronts, tomonts and trophonts of Cryptocaryon irritans in grouper
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17926065

Immune protection of Mozambique tilapia (Oreochromis mossambicus) exposed to different infectious doses of ectoparasite (Cryptocaryon irritans).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21739314

Elicited cross-protection and specific antibodies in Mozambique tilapia (Oreochromis mossambicus) against two different immobilization serotypes of Cryptocaryon irritans isolated in Hawaii.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21385614

A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20117218

Additionally, science has developed plenty of potent flea killers, but as their use increases so does parasite resistance by virtue of evolution. Just like bacteria, it's a constant battle to find new active agents. It's not a "one and done" situation.

Finally, GlaxoSmithKline developed a lyme disease vaccine in 1998 AND its FDA approved. It provides protection to 76% of people who receive it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11257352

Lyme disease is also readily treatable in the early stages with standard antibiotics. Chronic infections or infections of the brain are harder to treat, but the disease rarely progresses this far, and its probably why the vaccine isn't well known. Easily treatable diseases with low mortality and low infection rates don't require vaccination.

Yes, there have been some studies involving fish parasites since I can remember. Lyme disease was a bad example for me to use. I believe Lyme disease is caused by a virus and the tick is just the carrier. With the protozoan parasites we deal with, the parasites themselves are the problem....apples & oranges. The good Rx dog flea killers of a few years back are worthless now, IMO & IME. Some of the other studies involve tilapia, a very valuable aquacultured FW species; and I think that's where the money will have to come from. A vaccine for FW ich may lead to some SW cures too; but I doubt that a vaccine that worked on FW tilapia would work on SW ich....maybe, though. It would be great news, but I sure don't see anything that will bring shockwaves to our hobby in the near future. I agree with the Asian market being a big force; but fishkeeping is still a very small industry.

 

[sedgro]

Lyme disease is caused by a spirochete, a bacteria, though an odd type of bacteria.

The mechanism of action of Nitrofurantoin (Nitrofurazone) against bacteria is not completely understood - it interrupts several metabolic pathways and attacks bacterial DNA. It could have some of the same effects on a protozoan like Cryptocaryon. Metronidazole has both antibacterial and antiprotazoal properties.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.006135,-85.998287
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[h2so4hurts]

A vaccine for FW ich may lead to some SW cures too; but I doubt that a vaccine that worked on FW tilapia would work on SW ich....maybe, though.

Cryptocaryon irritans, whether it infects a freshwater fish or a saltwater fish is still Cryptocaryon irritans. Further, and most importantly, the research was conducted in tilapia that were acclimated to 34PPT saltwater... FW ich is a completely different and unrelated species of parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifilis.

Diggles and Adlard http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/22/d022p039.pdf

These initial studies show that a vaccine is possible. Though 40-50% protection isn't that good with a whole killed pathogen. The vast majority of modern vaccines use one to three proteins from the target parasite as antigens (think of puzzle pieces ie monovalent, divalent, trivalent = # of proteins used) to teach the immune system to recognize the pathogen. So you can see that THE FISH HOST doesn't matter, it's recognizable parasite proteins that matter.

In my opinion, vaccines in the fish trade just aren't practical in many applications. Unless you're treating brooding stocks and not introducing new animals, you're talking about innoculating millions of fish that are just going to be eaten anyway. Some in the trade might argue that prophylactic treatment with formalin/Malachite green/copper is easier, cheaper, and less of a pain in the *** than getting your hands on every single fish in your facility.

You should really think of reef keeping as a third world country. We'll get the trickle down effects of the demands of the bigger market. Think monsanto and GMO crops, AIDS drugs, Rotavirus vaccines, anti-malarials... If there's demand in aquaculture, then we'll definitely see it here.

 

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^An excellent evaluation for the prospects of any real "vaccines' for SW parasites, IMO. The 3rd world analogy is very appropriate. The money just isn't there, can you imagine trying to get grant money for a vaccine for "pet" fish? This is similar to looking at the cost for a skimmer; $400 for a few dollars (or whatever) worth of acrylic? We are are a very small market. The final straw would be someone stumbling on a "cure"; but it had to be done in a QT, so about 15% of the hobbyists would be protected anyhow.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Can you imagine trying to get grant money for a vaccine for "pet" fish?

What about for a commercial fish farm? Say, one that farms Tilapia. I wonder how much money a farm loses whenever there's a parasite outbreak. And I would think a vaccine for Ich could be modified to treat Crypto to expand it's profitability.

 

[MrTuskfish]

What about for a commercial fish farm? Say, one that farms Tilapia. I wonder how much money a farm loses whenever there's a parasite outbreak. And I would think a vaccine for Ich could be modified to treat Crypto to expand it's profitability.

I have no idea; but, just guessing, I doubt if "vaccine -modification" is inexpensive---if even possible. I wonder how catfish farms deal with the stuff.....they've been around a lot longer than tilapia farms. I admit to being in a conversation that I know nothing about. But there sure are enough human diseases/parasites that still don't have any vaccine/cure. Because the parasites we're talking about can be prevented or cured MOST of the time; I'd sure have a hard time asking for research money for a vaccine that prevents a curable parasite in ornamental fish. The vast majority of parasite problems we see on this forum are preventable or curable....of course; there are a few exceptions, but not many..I'd be PO'd if any of my tax money was used for it.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I have no idea; but, just guessing, I doubt if "vaccine -modification" is inexpensive---if even possible. I wonder how catfish farms deal with the stuff.....they've been around a lot longer than tilapia farms. I admit to being in a conversation that I know nothing about. But there sure are enough human diseases/parasites that still don't have any vaccine/cure. Because the parasites we're talking about can be prevented or cured MOST of the time; I'd sure have a hard time asking for research money for a vaccine that prevents a curable parasite in ornamental fish. The vast majority of parasite problems we see on this forum are preventable or curable....of course; there are a few exceptions, but not many..I'd be PO'd if any of my tax money was used for it.

I admit I'm getting a little biased due to my recent unsuccessful experience with copper. In all fairness, it never failed me before this time in 30+ years. It either killed the Ich or killed the fish - 100% problem solved! I just can't stop thinking that there has got to be a better way than poisoning our tank water with copper and then hoping the fish can outlast the parasite under those conditions. It makes more sense (to me) to treat the fish directly! So tonight I begin my little experimentation with Chloroquine Phosphate. And whether it works this time or not, I've got enough of it to treat my QT 25x so this won't be the one & only time I use it. I can't wait to get my hands on a fish just loaded with Crypto and give it a go under those circumstances. I also plan on experimenting with tank transfer method after I move to a bigger place where I can setup more tanks. I've never done hypo and never will. And after all the things I'm reading about, how tedious it is, it should be removed from the stickies IMHO.

 

[data_loss]

I can't wait to get my hands on a fish just loaded with Crypto and give it a go under those circumstances.

At least this part shouldn't be difficult :hmm5: