No NO3, No PO4, Algae everywhere !?!

[LCDRDATA]

I've been working on this problem for some time now, and nothing seems to be helping. I had a die-off in my tank about two months ago. Since then, I've done two 35-40% water changes, decided my RO filter was due for a filter change, and did three additional 35-40% water changes after switching all the elements. I'm also running carbon.

In the meantime, I have algae taking over my tank. I have tufts and mats of hair algae on live rock, on my clam, on the sides of the tank - even on the sides and outlet (!) of one of my Koralia flow pumps! There's some slime and/or diatom algae on top of the sand on the bottom and a couple of rock surfaces as well - I even have some kind of algae growing in my refugium on the chaeto! My skimmer is operating just fine, and I need to rinse my filter socks every couple of days.

I checked my parameters tonight - I did the last big water change on Saturday and after three in a week I wanted to make sure things had stabilized - and here's what I got.

pH = 8.2
Alk = 2.5 meq/7 dKH (I want to bump this a bit)
Nitrates = 0
Phosphates = 0
Calcium = 425
Magnesium = 1350
Salinity = 1.0265 (I'm going to bring that down a notch)
Temperature = 82 (ditto)

I've been feeding a bit more lately because my toadstool leather keeps turning up with chunks missing, and the only guess I can make is that my wrasse (bipartitus leopard) is getting the munchies while I'm at work. I got a bunch of additional snails about a week and a half ago, and I've noticed several of them seem to have died. My tiger cowrie seems to be bulletproof, but there's too much for him to eat on his own. What's going on, and what can I do about it? Thanks!

 

[WaterKeeper]

Hi Data,

I wish I could "Make it So" but it sounds like something is cycling. What caused the dieoff in the first place and don't tell me it was the Klingons?

 

[MartinEric]

Does sound a bit like cycle, how much are you feeding and how often, light cycle and are you missing any fish or inverts? have ammonia, or nitrite? Good ideas with upping the alk and dropping the temp a bit, but it does sound like something is feeding the algae.

 

[mat167]

The fact that you have a lot of algae is likely why your PO4 and NO3 are showing up at zero. They might be getting used up by the algae before you can test for them. Keep up the water changes, run GAC and GFO and change them often. Change out the GFO and GAC about once very two weeks, and try doing 20% water changes once or twice a week. You want to aim to remove the nutrients before they can be absorbed by the algae. Clean the skimmer 3-4 times a week, or more if needed. I've heard that higher concentrations of Mg can help get rid of the algae, but you'll have to bump it up to about 1500ppm, though I can't vouch for it's effectiveness. Carbon dosing might be another option.

 

[LCDRDATA]

No, it wasn't the Klingons - this is much more the Romulans' style. The whole sad story (or most of it anyway) in all its gory details unfolds through February and part of March on this thread (link is to the page where I jump in): Vitamin "c" dosing Calling the experts.... To be brief, no place for a hospital tank so tried to treat some sick fish with a "reef safe" product, leading to a cascade of slow death with only two of my fish, two of my corals, and one colony of zoas seem to have survived - along with some odds & ends hermit crabs, a few snails, and the aforementioned bulletproof Tiger Cowrie still alive. Come to think of it, the manufacturer's name is two words, each starting with an "R", just like "Romulan"...

With an abundance of live sand and live rock, even when we started the tank most of it was "established" so we never had much of a cycle even at the very beginning. We had a nitrate spike back in the November/December timeframe but got it under control with the chaeto and some carbon dosing, and all nitrogen cycle products have tested out at zero ever since.

I'm feeding some flakes once or twice a day, plus a clip with a piece of Bob Fenner's homemade fishfood (to hopefully keep the wrasse off of the toadstool). I know I'm missing some snails, but the main ones (a trio of good-sized zebra turbos) haven't been seen in a couple of months, so I'd think they'd be thoroughly cycled by now. Or I suppose there could be so much algae now that any nitrogenous compounds are taken up as soon as they're generated and so the zero reading is essentially a false negative - does that sound possible?

For lighting, I have an eight-bulb T5HO unit with 4x10k, 1x6700k, and 3xactinic bulbs. The main, 12-hour cycle is the 6700k, one actinic, and 2x10k, with the remainder switched on manually; depending on who remembers and when, that varies from about 3-7 hours/day. I've thought about leaving all the lights off for a day or so, but my crocea clam is still hanging in there - although not looking very good - and so I've been loath to cut of its light.

Well, there you have it. I'm open to suggestion

 

[RicksReefs]

I'd double check to make sure the cowrie isn't the one eating the toadstool.

 

[LCDRDATA]

I've seen the cowrie on it once, and it looked like it might have taken out a pencil-eraser sized bite, but I've never seen it on the toadstool again. With the pattern of damage & healing over time I'd estimate the cowrie would have to be going back roughly twice a day. So I think my prime suspect is still the wrasse, but I'm going to be home more over the next few days and I'll keep a closer eye on the cowrie. I know he used to "mow" my "grass" (green star polyps) before they died off like most everything else - not that his efforts might not have contributed to that as well.

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14789967#post14789967 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mat167
The fact that you have a lot of algae is likely why your PO4 and NO3 are showing up at zero. They might be getting used up by the algae before you can test for them. Keep up the water changes, run GAC and GFO and change them often. Change out the GFO and GAC about once very two weeks, and try doing 20% water changes once or twice a week. You want to aim to remove the nutrients before they can be absorbed by the algae. Clean the skimmer 3-4 times a week, or more if needed. I've heard that higher concentrations of Mg can help get rid of the algae, but you'll have to bump it up to about 1500ppm, though I can't vouch for it's effectiveness. Carbon dosing might be another option.

Good information here. ^^^ Another thing you might consider to get a jump on this is to scrub off your rocks. It's a messy project but it it helps. Next time you do a water change, save the water in three separate 5 gallon buckets. You'll need a stiff scrub brush too. Scrub off the rocks in the first bucket, rinse in second bucket to dislodge any remaining algae, then rinse again in the third bucket before replacing the LR in the tank. Bump up your cleaning crew too, add several more large turbos and consider adding a couple of sea hares. Blue Ribbon Koi and Marine in Manassas usually has sea hares in stock. A tang might help too. Cut back on your feeding schedule for a while until you have this under control.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Data,

Was your rock and sand exposed to that "reef safe" medication? If it was I suspect that the product damaged the biology of the system and the result is algae overtaking they tank. You are correct that algae can assimilate ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in very short order. Phosphate is also utilized fairly rapidly. Nitrogen is hard to limit but GFO will remove phosphate. As limiting phosphorus will impede algae production it may be the element to target.

 

[LCDRDATA]

I'll think about scrubbing off the rocks - I've got the buckets and the brush. I've been hesitant in the past because we we careful when we put the tank together to make sure the large base pieces were firmly on the bottom of the glass before adding the sand (so they couldn't be undermined). I have been blowing them off with a turkey baster on a regular basis.

I considered a sea hare the last time I was out at Blue Ribbon Koi, but my understanding is they tend to get eaten by pumps - which could be a problem given some of the algae growth is right on the pumps, especially the Koralias. I bumped up my cleaning crew on that trip, and have since noticed that a number of those snails have died - I suspect there are also a significant number that died where I can't see them. So I'm in somewhat of a catch-22 - I need to get a bigger cleaning crew to clear off algae and whatever dead stuff is feeding it, but it seems like much of whatever I add these days dies and has to be cleaned up.

I've thought about a tang, but the ultimate aim is to have a good number of mostly smaller, peaceful fish - nothing over about five inches - and I haven't seen any tangs that fit that description. I thought about a small hippo, but at full size he'd take up most of the "available" acceptable mass of fish - and I seem to recall seeing elsewhere on this forum that they tend to be ich magnets. But, if you have specific recommendations I'd like to hear them. Thanks!

 

[LCDRDATA]

WaterKeeper

Data, Was your rock and sand exposed to that "reef safe" medication? If it was I suspect that the product damaged the biology of the system and the result is algae overtaking they tank.

Yes, it was, and I've reached the same conclusion. Part of the reason I've been running the carbon and regularly blowing off the rock - not to mention the large water changes - is to hopefully eliminate any residual chemical. Unfortunately, new snails dying within a week suggests I'm not there yet, which is frustrating to no end.

I have added new live rock and live 'pods to help reseed the tank (and 'fuge) but it's unclear how successful that's been. I have seen some 'pods on the rock at night and tunnels in the sand against the glass, so hopefully I'm making some progress. Even so, if the wrasse is the one chomping the toadstool, I suspect it's because of the reduced population of the 'pods and related critters he'd usually be eating, which is why I added the clip (sort of the self service, fast food stop). The jury's still out on that as well.

 

[THE ROOK]

Bought a sea hare last week & it mowed down the HA within 3-4 days. It hasn't bothered my Koralias, yet. I feel it's well worth the $20.00

 

[mutateddogbone]

your rocks will also store the phosphate and nitrate and will gradually leach out over time. you may need to "cook" your rock to remove the excess nutrients

 

[tarpon12]

I went through the same exact problem. I had a die off a while back and had hair algae problems after. I to sampled the water and had the same readings as you. I went to a meeting at my LFS and talked to a marine biologists and he told me that the algae is absorbing the phosphates and thats probably why im not getting a reading. He also told me that there was a high probability that my rocks and sand absorbed the phosphates and are leaching out. So, I bought a phosban reactor and ran GFO through it for two months along with weekly water changes and now I finally free of hair algae.

 

[stingythingy45]

"I've been feeding a bit more lately because my toadstool leather keeps turning up with chunks missing, and the only guess I can make is that my wrasse (bipartitus leopard) is getting the munchies while I'm at work."

This is never a good thing to do when you have a nuisance algae problem. I would consider selling the wrasse or the toadstool before feeding extra.Anyway,I think the best thing you can do is run some kind of GFO reactor.HA is very hard to get rid of once it's established.I have some in my 20L cycled QT tank and I even went lights out for over 2 weeks.Only to have it return after the light were turned back on.

 

[LCDRDATA]

THE ROOK
Bought a sea hare last week & it mowed down the HA within 3-4 days. It hasn't bothered my Koralias, yet. I feel it's well worth the $20.00

I'll take that under advisement - among other things, my daughter thought sea hares were so cute and was disappointed when I didn't get one. Once they've got the algae under control, do you just feed with sheet seaweed? I wouldn't want it to starve afterwards, although I don't see that as likely in the short term.

stingythingy45
...I would consider selling the wrasse or the toadstool before feeding extra. Anyway,I think the best thing you can do is run some kind of GFO reactor. HA is very hard to get rid of once it's established.

That's crossed my mind as well, but I'm pretty attached to both of them. So I'll probably cut back some and see how things go. I don't have a true phosban reactor but I do have a flow-through filter that will hold a bag (2-3 cups) of media. I'll be putting the GFO in it later this evening once I take care of a few other things I need to do.

Another possible addition I've thought of is a short-spined urchin (echinometra spp). Anyone have a thought or experience on that? We had one in our tank about 25 years ago when we were stationed in Hawaii. It seemed very hardy and didn't bother anything else in the tank. Thanks again.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Data,

That is a good move on the GFO. I think if you can take the phosphate out of the picture it will do a lot to reduce the algae outbreak. The one problem with urchins in that they tend to eat the good coralline algae. Sometimes to the point of nearly eliminating it from the tank. When that happens, you guessed it, nuisance algae takes up the slack.

 

[Bigjoe2531]

Hospital tanks {quarantine tanks} are a must, considering the time and effort not to mentionv the $$$$$ spent . I've learned that the hard way with my discus tanks over the years.