No Sick Fish, No QT, No water change

aaron23 - I'll wait for the English translation of your post ;)

Full sentences, or at least a glossary with definitions, would be helpful.

Thank you in the meantime :)
 
Anthony... I'm not saying that the product is good or bad one way or the other. I also see no need for the product since I really don't keep many fish now and certainly not those that would be called prone to disease and subsequent infections. My concern was only that attention be given to claims of creating fictitious quotes of RC posts. Many RC members will read the original post and never read that the post was in error. That reader then months from now quotes the false information again. That's why I think it important for everyone to have the facts correct before making their comments public.

Randall_James
Misspelling the names of people that have made claims for or against your product shows a certain lack of thoroughness.

Being a small business owner since 1982 I speak from experience when I say that I certainly can't do everything involved in running a business to perfection. If I misspelled dorr seal once in a while in error would that make my product any less likely to fit perfectly and function as an original part would for 15+ years?

SteveU
 
The testimonials from Ryan and Atomik seem to be direct quotes, but the BobF from WetWebMedia passage appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6243427#post6243427 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gtrestoration


Being a small business owner since 1982 I speak from experience when I say that I certainly can't do everything involved in running a business to perfection. If I misspelled dorr seal once in a while in error would that make my product any less likely to fit perfectly and function as an original part would for 15+ years?

SteveU
The misspelled word "dorr" is a bit different than 3 or 4 posted testimonials, on the same page , where lines were omitted, names misspelled, and who knows what other errors might be present. (in the products favor coincidentally)

The fact is, testimonials should 100% error free and complete in their own context.
Copy and paste is not a hard function to master and if you are going to be quoting threads on a forum, hand typing them seems a bit "dubious" when certain items are omitted or changed by accident?

In the world of medicine whether animal or human, those types of errors are not permitted. If you are going to produce a medication, you are in fact held to a standard above that of a 8th grade term paper missing some references to quoted sources.

I can appreciate your defending the errors, why I am not sure however.
By the same reasoning, I read the Bob Fenner endorsed the product, I never saw the post on RC that debunked the post as outright fraudulent. Instead they modify the name posted, and left it in the fraudulent context that it was originally posted without link to the original posting. (Explain the reason or was this a simple error as related to the word "dorr")
 
Anthony, I don't know the ingredients of a lot of stuff I put in my tank. I use resources like this and testimony from people like yourself to find out if something is appropriate for my tank. I never told you or anyone to try the product. Don't act like I did and don't put words in my mouth. There is no need to be condenscending.

Why don't you use your resources to test the product, learn more about the product, find out ingredients, whatever you are capable of. I don't see one positive thing you've done here. You stating that we don't know what's in it, it may be unethical to sell something like this, is just as bad as what manufacturer has done.

Just answer me this. Do you know if the product works, do you know if it doesn't work, do you know if it's safe or unsafe. Or did you know any of this before the thread was started.

Again, all I am saying is that there is a very negative tone to this thread (from the begining) that if I was a sponsor, I would think twice about continuing to do so.

I would be willing to bet that the little icon below my Avatar "I support RC" and those like me provide at least as much if not more of the operating funds for this site than any 10 of the "Business" sponsors.

I would just LOVE to see the pay checks the "Pros" get here while I laugh all the way to the bank......

I don't know how many people "support RC" and I don't know what it costs for a vendor to sponsor this site but i'd guess about $400-$600 per month. I think it costs $25 per year to "support". Again, I don't know the numbers but judging from the number of sponsors here I think it's safe to assume that a big part of the monies collected by RC and the resources RC is able to provide for us come from our sponsors.

I'll say it again. If this product is a scam, then I hope everyone learns about it. i don't have any idea if it works or not but when I first started reading this thread I got the impression that this company had been torturing puppies or something.:)
 
parshmar,

The burden should not be on us consumers/hobbyists to discover what is in a product, whether or not it works, or whether or not it is safe. That is the job of the manufacturer.
 
What you do not realize is that to get a thorough chemical analysis from an independant lab, it can cost $10K-ish. Actually... I have reviewed several of them in the last year and not one was less than $12K to run the study.

That financial burden is not on me or you parshmar to do, although it chides me a bit to read you naively suggesting to me to "use [my] resources to test the product" as part of your defense.

It's the obligation of the mfg instead to run such trials if they want to make claims that they can back up when educated consumers ask intelligent questions like, "Is this safe for my tank" and "how do you know it works"

You are very naive IMO. I'm saying that in plainspeak... not with the intent to insult you. You have no concept of what is costs to run a website (paying authors to run the free magazine you love to read, pay for images, servers, begging advertisers to pay up when so many don't, etc)... you have no concept of what is required financially to run a reliable and verifiable analysis of a product... and you have no idea, clearly, what my perspective is here.

I do know what is costs to run a large website (if you did you'd thank the RC administration, volunteers and owners IMO).

I do know what good consumer advocacy is.

I'm pretty sure I don't know, too often, when to stop trying to educate someone that is unwilling to learn or listen.

I'm sorry to have wasted your time. Hopefully others will benefit by pondering our exchange here.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6243685#post6243685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by parshmar
Anthony, I don't know the ingredients of a lot of stuff I put in my tank.
This speaks volumes... and also where we are completely different. I have maybe 10K invested in my tanks. I would no sooner put an unknown chemical in my tank as try electro shock therapy on Tang with Ich.. I know that the EST will cure the Tang however... Try it you will see
( I had a light fixture fall into a tank once, not a single fish in the tank has suffered a disease, parasite or ailment since that time 3 years ago)
 
$10,000? WOW, I had no idea that it costs that much for a lab analysis. Have you heard back from the company about the Bob F. misquote yet Anthony? I would like to hear his explanation.
 
Anthony, I don't think you got my point at all.

you have no concept of what is required financially to run a reliable and verifiable analysis of a product... and you have no idea, clearly, what my perspective is here.

You have no idea what I did before I was a teacher. I know exactly what it costs to do that kind of analysis. It was much more expensive than that, not that long ago. Yet, that is not what I was suggesting so maybe i'm not the naive one here. Read between the lines.
 
My general opinon - directed towards any product or service that might match fit this list:

A few typo's on a website => either a bad proofreader or someone that doesn't want to portray their best image

A few typo's in a testimonial => anything from a bad proofreader to someone trying to hide/disguise something

Several typo's in testimonial's - all creating a more "positive" image => Bad proofeaders need not apply. This has the potential to get the company in some "hot water".

Stating that you have "proof" and "test results" while never posting said results => If the "proof" and "test results" are as the company claims them to be, they can lose nothing by disclosing the information. Without disclosure of those results they trigger an inate response in most people to distrust the company for "hiding something" or "being dishonest".

Multiple "glowing" reviews started by new or nearly new (1-5 posts) individuals on multiple sites, with those individuals never posting about anything else => At the very least, this creates a serious cloud of suspicion. This is considered to be an "unnatural act" by most people and is most typically viewed as a shill.

Now, one of those things happening could simply be a natural occurence. But, the more of those acts that occur, the more likely people will distrust the company. Whether that distrust is correct will be obvious as time goes on.

Dwain
 
The way I see it, this product serves a purpose. A person who uses it will spend a lot of money and find out it doesnt work and do one of two things: 1) Learn from the mistake and never do it again 2) get out of the hobby. Both of these are good outcomes, #2 is good becuause someone who is willing to blindly put something into their aquarium should not be in the hobby.
 
It just galls me to see someone benefit from people that will blindly try products on a "chance" they might work.....

Shame on the person that blindly uses products in a desperate attempt to save their precious pets, I understand the feeling of helplessness and the willingness to do what ever it takes to help your fine finned friend....

Worse than shame on those willing to capitalize on these same individuals by knowingly deceiving the person in the first group in an effort to line their pockets with the money put out by these desperate individuals.

Further shame on anyone that stands to defend the second group of people. Maybe more so than most as you make it possible for this group to continue on... perhaps you yourself have pulled such scams and so defend the others right to do the same thing....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6244536#post6244536 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cduran02
The way I see it, this product serves a purpose. A person who uses it will spend a lot of money and find out it doesnt work and do one of two things: 1) Learn from the mistake and never do it again 2) get out of the hobby. Both of these are good outcomes, #2 is good becuause someone who is willing to blindly put something into their aquarium should not be in the hobby.

So If I'm willing to try a product, I fall into your two categories?

Come on guys, those are the type of comments that bring on some nasties and some bad feelings.

Okay guys, since I revived this thread, lets make sure that it stays as a discussion thread :D

Anthony,
I actually welcomed you when you came in with Jim to Atlantis last year for NERAC, I was manning the registration booth.

Hopefully this gives me a smidge of creadence above wacko & I'm not a one post wonder such as farmboy or utterback that some were referring to. I'm also not providing a testimonial, just a discussion that I am trying the product. Whether it works or not, is yet to be seen.

A large concern is whether the product is "reef safe". I might not have $10Ks in corals, but it's in the thousands mark. I also mentioned how Kick-Ick affected my acros (most likely the nitroimidazole reagents) and that the product was advertised to be "reef safe". Why I tried this in my reef tank is beyond me (especially since I told myself that the tank will never see Kick-Ick again), but I did try it. In the 3 weeks that I have dosed it, I have not experienced any negative effects on any of my SPS & clams. What I did notice was my yellow leather has not expanded much in the past week or so but also has closed up or started to slough either. As for LPS, I do have some candycanes that are not as full on the fleshy part, also within the last week or so. Even though the softie & candycanes are not at it's best, I would still consider it to be "reef safe" for my application.

Whether the product works or not:
Here's my opinion so far & I am basing this from my FOWLR tank that was heavily infected and lost 60% of it's fish inhabitants. I wouldn't consider the first 7 day treatment effective because I failed to remove the heavy dosing of Kick-Ick & Rally prior to the treatment. Week 2 would also be questionable since I also failed to turn off my Phosban reactor.
Of the 4 fish that were left after week 2, a Naso tang was the worst affected fish. He had a heavy covering of the parasite including the eye area and also showed patches of secondary infections on the body area along with some fin rot.
Due to the amount of visible parasites, I decided to give him a 5 minute fresh water dip. The dip was performed (I didn't think he would survive the dip) and he was returned to the tank for treatment week #3.
Whatever fell off during the fresh water bath came back within a few days but now it's been about 11 days and the Naso shows no visible signs of the parasite and what surprised me a bit was the body scars from the secondary infections have healed up nicely.
I won't say that the ick has been erradicated because:
#1 - I'm weary of the product so that's why I'm still dosing
#2 - I see no "visible" attachments but I think or thought I still saw my Blue angel scratch once or twice

I've eliminated all the possibles that I could in regards to interference with the product's active ingredient but i'm sure my water quality has gone downhill so I turned my skimmers back on for both tanks while still dosing the product.
I going to finish this treatment & stop the dosing to see if the intial results are just temporary.

I've used up about 4 bottles of the stuff, so I did spend some money on the product. It may very well be put with the Kick-Icks, RxPs & Chem Marins but it was asked if anyone has tried this product and I'm answering that question.
 
is it not possible with all the time that has passed that the fishes own natural ability to fight off what ever has succeeded and the outcome would have been the same had flavored water or nothing at all been added to the tank?

I mean there is evidence to the fact that some fish will fight off the parasite to survive without intervention of any kind.. Hence the problem with proving any treatments ability to work..
All it takes is a manufacturer with enough confidence in their product to commission an unbiased study..
 
Further shame on anyone that stands to defend the second group of people. Maybe more so than most as you make it possible for this group to continue on... perhaps you yourself have pulled such scams and so defend the others right to do the same thing..

Now, now, now. Because someone voices an opinion on how the free market works suddenly they're all scam artists? please

Personally I don't think there's enough profit potential to run FDA style drug studies on a fish med being marketed to the hobbyist. If you thought having a lab determine the contents of this product was expensive you should research the funding this type of study would require. If they do it any other way no one will accept the results so it seems fruitless. I'd guess that's why you wont see further post by the maker.

SteveU
 
I think the market for a "reef safe" product that cures the scope of ailments that this does is tremendous. Ich alone would generate figures that would make most reasonably wealthy.

Lest we be naive about the amount of money spent in this hobby:

Year 2003
an estimated 20 million coral reef fish were purchased for trade in the salt water tank hobby

Revenue in the aquarium hobby rose from 16.9 to 17.2 BILLION dollars

This is a lucrative market to say the very least...

As Ich is arguably one of the leading parasite issues facing reefers, do you think that maybe there is a likely source of revenue for the guy that comes up with a "Reef Safe" cure?

Please....
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Billy B [mailto: @RiptidesReef.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:14 AM
To: sales@nosickfish.com; Sales
Subject: Contact Request
Name: Billy B.

Customer Type: Retail Customer

Email: @RiptidesReef.com

Phone: 2148944

How they heard about us: Other - @charter.net

Hi, It's Billy from Riptide's Reef. We just received your product and I wanted to thank you for the expidited shipping. I was under the impression it would take a couple of weeks to recieve the items if we did'nt choose express shipping. We have'nt had the opportunity to use the transit yet. We are also a small company trying to grow but I'll let you know after we use it. We had a whipfin fairy wrasse with ich and used the ich treatment you included in our order and it cleared up in 24 hours. The fish system is connected to 300 gallons of coral tanks and harmed nothing! Thank you for your professionalism and please give credit to the gentleman who suggested your products. His name is Randy and I included his email address. Sincerely, Billy B www.RiptidesReef.com
LEESOCCER: it says you used the ich product...
LEESOCCER: ???
LEESOCCER: tell me the truth billy
LEESOCCER: cuz this guy is a sponser for reef central
LEESOCCER: and i really think
LEESOCCER: he is cheating everybody out of their money
LEESOCCER: did you say this stuff ?
LEESOCCER: i was like wat the hell hey i know billy
LEESOCCER: and i read it and was like hmmm this seems kind of fishy let me ask him
RipTides Reef: yeah he added the part about us using it on the whipfin lol
LEESOCCER: LOL
LEESOCCER: ur kidding
RipTides Reef: no Im not
RipTides Reef: I wrote the rest though
RipTides Reef: thanked him for the fast shipping
LEESOCCER: would you allow me
LEESOCCER: to post this on rc?
RipTides Reef: the transit seems to be working fine
RipTides Reef: you know whats funny?
RipTides Reef: if you read that post
RipTides Reef: you can tell its an email thanking him for the product and fast shipping
RipTides Reef: and then said, I havent had a chance to use it
LEESOCCER: LOL
RipTides Reef: then it says it worked good lol
LEESOCCER: would you mind that i post that he made that stuff up about the whipfin?
RipTides Reef: go ahead
RipTides Reef: i dont care


Boy o boy... CAUGHT RED HANDED SON!~

BADABING BADABAM .... PEACE CHEAP SKATE!~

Ownd / Beat by,

Aaron
 
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