no water changes anyone?

So if you don't do water changes, do you add other things to tank (besides calc, alk, and Mag, obviously) to replenish "stuff" that water changes are supposed to replenish?

Also, what do you do if you see detritus/gunk/cyano/dinos/algae forming that others would remove during weekly water changes?

Thanks,

Mike
 
So far I'm pretty lucky, no algae or cyano. Ive got an excess of filtration and a great protein skimmer. I put in about 2 gallons of distilled water a week for evaporation. I have products to replenish a lot of different things, but i haven't needed to use any just yet. Actually made the mistake of dosing purple up for Coraline algae growth. Made calcium shoot up to 480 for a week.
My tanks sustaining not thriving so I'm looking for a rodi unit. Thats all i need to get to that truly healthy point where i can confidently put something more challenging in there.
 
I have a 180g sps& lps tank which shares a 180g sump/refugium/DSB with a 75g hex tank. I use to do water changes every month, then it became every 2 months, then once a quarter. Now I do one when I feel like it... and that's maybe every 6 to 9 months. HOWEVER, realize that I have a 45g refugium with growing Chaeto, a 45g DSB with 8-10" of fine sand, and 95g for the return pump and skimmer. I also have about 300 pounds of LR between the tanks and the sump (none in the refugium or DSB) and my tanks have great flow and over the top randomize water flow.

Could you please elaborate on your sump? I'm getting ready to upgrade to a 180 DT with a 75 sump. I have three chambers. First one for skimmer, last one for return pump and phos reactor. I want or do a refugium, but how deep of a sand bed? Should I use LR rubble instead? How to maintain it?where do I put macro?

Anyone can chime in too 😀
 
So if you don't do water changes, do you add other things to tank (besides calc, alk, and Mag, obviously) to replenish "stuff" that water changes are supposed to replenish?

Also, what do you do if you see detritus/gunk/cyano/dinos/algae forming that others would remove during weekly water changes?

Thanks,

Mike

I siphon the small amount of detritus into a filter sock in the sump. Not doing water changes doesn't mean not removing waste from the system. If, like mine, the system is breaking down/removing Phosphate and Nitrate and the trace elements that are bound up and removed by bacteria and skimming are replaced, there isn't any reason to change water.
 
:fish1: Hi Casey, you may get away with a beautiful tank for a few years, but I would ask Mother Nature why she does constant water changes? These water changes have been going on for billions of years. Can't fool mother nature. :fish1:
 
:fish1: Hi Casey, you may get away with a beautiful tank for a few years, but I would ask Mother Nature why she does constant water changes? These water changes have been going on for billions of years. Can't fool mother nature. :fish1:

Glenf has been "getting away with it" for about a decade now, and his reef is one of the best in the world. If you like water changes be my guest. I can tell you from experience that regular water changes are not necessary, one of the very successful reef keeping methods out there, the Triton method, does not require them except to correct an error such as accidental poisoning or overdose.
 
No matter how much one tries to dodge it, it can't be ignored that a consistent water change schedule is the most obvious commonality shared by successful reef tanks. It doesn't take long to realize the most experienced reefers push this as the staple of success. Not only are they helpful in removing waste and nutrients, they are even more valuable by replacing elements coral rely on to thrive.

I find the schedule just as important as the water change itself. Diligence in changing a consistent volume with a reliable timeframe ensures stability. Stability, in my mind, is the number one absolute in keeping coral. Water changes are the simplest and easiest way to keep tank parameters stable. Why would one want to dose a bottle of this and that to try and keep parameters dialed in? There are many elements that go untested which can be easily stabilized by a routine water change schedule. The deficit of such might take time to show itself, but it will.

I liken water changes to changing the oil in an engine. If you stop doing them the car will continue to run. No one would argue that the instant you go past the recommended mileage the car will break down. In fact, it might continue for many thousands of miles. But how long down the road before things goes terribly wrong?

There are many methods and practices out there in hopes of removing organics and waste within a reef aquarium. Many of which do a very good job. Skimmers, algae, live rock, etc. But no matter how well these items perform, they will never be able to keep up in removing the amount of organics we introduce into the tank by feeding our fish. Skimmers will never remove enough organics on their own. Algae cannot remove particulates before they begin to break down. And the life within our rock and sand can only go so far in consuming these organics. These dissolved organics have to go somewhere, they are never processed to the point of complete elimination.

Yes, there are exceptions. You can employ different tasks like siphoning your waste into a filter sock and dosing different items into the tank, but I can't help but ask myself why complicate something that can be so very basic, simple and beneficial as a water change?

The only reasons I can think of are time and money. Unfortunately I can't ever imagine a reef aquarium that is set and forget. If this is a goal, I expect there might be some struggles. Even the tasks we automate in order to simplify the work involved require weekly or monthly prep or intervention. Nothing will take care of itself indefinitely.

As far as cost, salt is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. I've always thought it a wise decision to pay $45 for a box of salt in order to keep the many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of fish and coral healthy within a reef tank. These are living things and it is only wise to act responsibly when entrusted with their care.

For every tank that is successful without performing water changes, I would wager that there are easily many more with proven success by utilizing them.
 
Had a couple die hard buddies in the hobby for almost a decade get back to water changes after thinking it was not needed. A huge crash later and they can't believe the colors and health they see now with scheduled water changes. I'm not saying everyone will crash, just sharing their experiences.
 
Do them or don't. Just understand if you don't there's work still to be done in testing, dosing, and making sure export methods of some kind are in place.

Glenf is a good example of someone that has successfully gone (so far) with out traditional periodic water changes. Sure there's the removal of things like frags and algae and filters etc that removes some water that needs added back in but I would not count that as a maintanence partial water change. Glenf has a website describing his method and the work that he's put into maintaining his system.

PaulB is a great example of a very long running reef system that does do water changes but not on any normal frequent schedule. His thread and new book he wrote that's out now shows his methods of waste removal.

Then look at just about every reef of the month and will show that doing frequent partial water changes can be done as well.

So, I guess my point is make sure you know what you're getting into. I see no reason at all not to do periodic water changes at some kind of interval. Don't like hauling buckets? There's many ways to setup pumps/plumbing/tubing/etc to make it very easy or even completely automated.

Doing water changes is a very easy (and can be cheap if you don't buy super expensive brands) way to help export unwanted nutrients and import back in necessary elements that were depleted.

Some systems that's all that's needed. That's all I do for my small 20 gallon softy tank. No other filtration. Just 4gallon water changes each week. On my 180 mixed reef I setup daily automatic water changes of around 1% of the system volume. However it's not enough but sure does enough I just add some Mg to my salt mix once and dose lime water in my ATO. Couldn't be easier.

Problem I see with the camp of never do water changes is that they have to test regularly and dose often. But there's no way everything that is bad can be tested for and no way everything that is needed can be tested for. At least not at a price we would want. There also is not much in the way of saving money on salt as it probably costs more to go that route on test kits, reagents, and individual elements to be dosed then what I spend. However, if conservation is the agenda then I can fully appreciate that especially in drought stricken areas.
 
:fish1: Dugless, very good post, I wonder what the cost and time difference is for adding all those different chemicals and monitoring them as compared to water changes. Another thing can you add all the elements to a tank like you would do with a water change, especially a water change using NSW. :fish1:
 
but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...
 
but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

Evaporation doesn't export anything at any kind of effective level.
 
but basically arent you adding fresh water every time you top off....i ad almost a gallon of fresh water everyday....i know its not adding any trace elements ...but it fresh water...so its kinda like doing a water change,,,lol...

lol, i was thinking the same thing when I was pouring in my top off water today. I'm running GFO and carbon, as well as a skimmer and a refug. I plan on doing 10-20% water changes every couple months.
 
There are a lot of threads about this, the one in the advanced section has some good info.
One issue with not changing water is that problems like rocks becoming saturated with phosphate or trace elements building up or depleting can take a long time to show up. So people think they have figured something out when they don't have algae for 7 months, and then at 18 months the tank crashes. Success in reefing is not less than a year for anything, when it comes to nutrient export I want to see at least 5 years and longer is better.

There are tanks that have been successful without water changes, GlennF's is a good example of a sustainable long-term no waterchange regimen. I would do that if I lived in a drought place for ethical reasons, but I don't think it is easier. As with most things, the shortcut is a lot of work. Anybody that acts like they can add a few drops of this or that and have a no water change tank is kidding themself. We are talking about testing and maintaining at minimum: Ca,KH,Mg,Sr,K, and B, as well as tweaking NaCl. Assuming one is planning to run the tank for a long time, a great many reefers quit before they hit 10 years.

BTW PaulB does regularly scheduled deep cleaning, he calls it a typhoon or hurricane or supermodel cyclone or something. It involves a diatom filter. I think he's also got a giant skimmer, algae trough, RUGF, and dinitrator. Still he does occasionally dump in some new sea water I think.
 
There are many misconceptions on this thread, and its doubtful that anyone firmly in either camp will change their mind. But to address the misconceptions:

1) Water change or no, nutrient export must be performed, dirt must be removed, etc. Just because I don't throw away water that is perfectly fine doesn't mean I don't remove a lot of crud via skimmer and the occasional siphoning into a filter sock.
2) I don't do very much testing, I have found that with a well designed system the levels stay pretty constant. I haven't had measurable Phosphate in over a year and a half. My nitrate is intentionally kept at 2-5ppm. The most testing I do is for KH because the demand changes as the coral growth accelerates. I would do this much testing if I was changing water - maybe more as water changes mess with the stable KH.
3) I don't add all that much outside the calcium and alkalinity 2-part solutions- 4 drops lugols per day, 5Ml each of two Fauna Marin color elements supplements per week, 8 drops iron citrate per week, and a ml of sponge supplement twice a week. I add Magnesium every month or so to keep the level above 1400. If I was changing water I would be dosing these items as well.
4) Water changes have no effect on sequestration of Phosphate in rock, unless you have a high phosphate problem. This happens when the phosphate levels are high - binding then occurs to aragonite. When phosphate levels are reduced in the water to lower levels, the aragonite exchanges phosphate back to the water. If you maintain low phosphate levels, no binding to substrate will occur.
5) The salt I lose from the skimmate is replaced by the uptake of the 2-part solutions. Residual Na and Cl from these keeps the salinity of the system pretty stable. these have to be dosed in equal amounts or you will have an ionic imbalance eventually and will need a water change.
 
Unless a skimmer or filter sock is capable of removing in it's entirety the amount of organics introduced daily, the tank can only trend towards decline. Even if the offset is minimal, it still adds up to a losing battle. There isn't a math formula out there that can prove the opposite. Even as waste gets broken down by the different biological activities, it still remains in the aquarium. It is a closed system. There is no magic to it. The only way to remove it completely, is to take water out and replace it.

Perhaps the misconception lies in the stubborn denial that water changes are useful. Or that water becoming devoid of trace elements and getting saturated with dissolved organics is perfectly fine.
 
No matter how much one tries to dodge it, it can't be ignored that a consistent water change schedule is the most obvious commonality shared by successful reef tanks. It doesn't take long to realize the most experienced reefers push this as the staple of success. Not only are they helpful in removing waste and nutrients, they are even more valuable by replacing elements coral rely on to thrive.

I find the schedule just as important as the water change itself. Diligence in changing a consistent volume with a reliable timeframe ensures stability. Stability, in my mind, is the number one absolute in keeping coral. Water changes are the simplest and easiest way to keep tank parameters stable. Why would one want to dose a bottle of this and that to try and keep parameters dialed in? There are many elements that go untested which can be easily stabilized by a routine water change schedule. The deficit of such might take time to show itself, but it will.

I liken water changes to changing the oil in an engine. If you stop doing them the car will continue to run. No one would argue that the instant you go past the recommended mileage the car will break down. In fact, it might continue for many thousands of miles. But how long down the road before things goes terribly wrong?

There are many methods and practices out there in hopes of removing organics and waste within a reef aquarium. Many of which do a very good job. Skimmers, algae, live rock, etc. But no matter how well these items perform, they will never be able to keep up in removing the amount of organics we introduce into the tank by feeding our fish. Skimmers will never remove enough organics on their own. Algae cannot remove particulates before they begin to break down. And the life within our rock and sand can only go so far in consuming these organics. These dissolved organics have to go somewhere, they are never processed to the point of complete elimination.

Yes, there are exceptions. You can employ different tasks like siphoning your waste into a filter sock and dosing different items into the tank, but I can't help but ask myself why complicate something that can be so very basic, simple and beneficial as a water change?

The only reasons I can think of are time and money. Unfortunately I can't ever imagine a reef aquarium that is set and forget. If this is a goal, I expect there might be some struggles. Even the tasks we automate in order to simplify the work involved require weekly or monthly prep or intervention. Nothing will take care of itself indefinitely.

As far as cost, salt is very cheap in the grand scheme of things. I've always thought it a wise decision to pay $45 for a box of salt in order to keep the many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars of fish and coral healthy within a reef tank. These are living things and it is only wise to act responsibly when entrusted with their care.

For every tank that is successful without performing water changes, I would wager that there are easily many more with proven success by utilizing them.

huge waste of my time lmao! thanks captain obvious :)
 
:fish1: Dugless, very good post, I wonder what the cost and time difference is for adding all those different chemicals and monitoring them as compared to water changes. Another thing can you add all the elements to a tank like you would do with a water change, especially a water change using NSW. :fish1:

it's not about the cost it's about the challenge and accomplishment
 
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