no water changes anyone?

[johnfallon135]

:fish1: Hi all, like I've stated earlier, I'm in the water change group, and for anyone willing to experiment and try to go a long time without water changes, good luck to you and your experimentation on adding additives to your tank to make it resemble NSW. The main reason's I do NSW water changes to my system are, I don't have the time or the equipment to measure all the elements that are in NSW or their correct concentrations. :fish1:

if you don't have the time or the equipment necessary to aid the research of this method then why chime in? your comments become irrelevant to the thread topic. this is why I said there's always that NSW person that ignorantly joins the thread.

 

[jason2459]

if you don't have the time or the equipment necessary to aid the research of this method then why chime in? your comments become irrelevant to the thread topic. this is why I said there's always that NSW person that ignorantly joins the thread.

No reason to start becoming to aggressive and throwing insults.

There will always be differing opinions and methods to run a system. And the fact is we don't have any method or tests available to us to measure all possible undesirable or wanted elements. Even the triton icp test has limits of detection that limits its full use.

 

[johnfallon135]

No reason to start becoming to aggressive and throwing insults.

There will always be differing opinions and methods to run a system. And the fact is we don't have any method or tests available to us to measure all possible undesirable or wanted elements. Even the triton icp test has limits of detection that limits its full use.

 

[johnfallon135]

No reason to start becoming to aggressive and throwing insults.

There will always be differing opinions and methods to run a system. And the fact is we don't have any method or tests available to us to measure all possible undesirable or wanted elements. Even the triton icp test has limits of detection that limits its full use.

that's why I specifically said trial and error because I knew this would come up, inevitably. proving my points, once again.

 

[mhurley]

if you don't have the time or the equipment necessary to aid the research of this method then why chime in? your comments become irrelevant to the thread topic. this is why I said there's always that NSW person that ignorantly joins the thread.

I realize you are new here so let me both welcome you and warn you that this attitude is not how this particular forums runs. You may want to review the [ua] just to brush up.

 

[FarmerTy]

I believe the no WC, testing, and dosing method is a lot of work. One of the reasons its not for me. I for one am lazy when it comes to running my system and have never tried to hide that. I would rather make maintaining my tank easier and as automated as possible.

Jason, I'm curious, have you tried to setup a system with no water changes? My apex runs my top off, my calcium reactor doses my foundation elements and trace elements, my biopellets makes nitrates a non-issue, my GFO keeps my phosphates low, my auto fish feeder feeds my fish, my skimmer removes proteins/organics before they break down, my autoneck wiper keeps my skimmer super efficient... you know what I do on my tank? I wipe the front glass and test my alk weekly... the only monthly tasks I do is dumping my skimmate reservoir and replacing GFO, the rest are every 6 months (top off CaRX, biopellets, replace food in autofeeder, clean all equipment).

At the end of the day, I consider my no water change the lazier of the two options.

 

[Johnb123]

Jason, I'm curious, have you tried to setup a system with no water changes? My apex runs my top off, my calcium reactor doses my foundation elements and trace elements, my biopellets makes nitrates a non-issue, my GFO keeps my phosphates low, my auto fish feeder feeds my fish, my skimmer removes proteins/organics before they break down, my autoneck wiper keeps my skimmer super efficient... you know what I do on my tank? I wipe the front glass and test my alk weekly... the only monthly tasks I do is dumping my skimmate reservoir and replacing GFO, the rest are every 6 months (top off CaRX, biopellets, replace food in autofeeder, clean all equipment).

At the end of the day, I consider my no water change the lazier of the two options.

:thumbsup:

watch out they're going to give you the whole "but.. but.. you don't know what trace elements you're missing though" and even if you're successful for 50 years one day it may crash so your success can never be proven lol

 

[jason2459]

Jason, I'm curious, have you tried to setup a system with no water changes? My apex runs my top off, my calcium reactor doses my foundation elements and trace elements, my biopellets makes nitrates a non-issue, my GFO keeps my phosphates low, my auto fish feeder feeds my fish, my skimmer removes proteins/organics before they break down, my autoneck wiper keeps my skimmer super efficient... you know what I do on my tank? I wipe the front glass and test my alk weekly... the only monthly tasks I do is dumping my skimmate reservoir and replacing GFO, the rest are every 6 months (top off CaRX, biopellets, replace food in autofeeder, clean all equipment).

At the end of the day, I consider my no water change the lazier of the two options.

Generalizations there. Doing water changes can be made to sound just as easy. Lets not make it a measuring contest but I don't mind sharing methods used. :beer:

I also use an Apex and have most everything automated. I do automatic water changes of ~1% daily via a spectrapure that spreads it out over 155 times per day. I have a mixing container (50g brute) that I fill up every few weeks (around once I month I think) with 300gpd RO/DI unit (has 3 or 4 DI stages to conserve DI and it's done a terrific job of that). It's got switches and floats etc to let me know when it's ready to be filled and is filled. I have it setup to do those notifications that I just have to dump in a single bag of cheap w/ free shipping IO I would buy in bulk and it will mix to 35ppt. No measuring needed. A quick refractometer check lets me know as well. I then add 1/2 cup of bulk Mg(chloride/sulfate mix 7/1 per g). I have to mix that once in a blue moon. I see this as a small insurance policy on unknowns that need exported and imported. Plus the knowns greatly reducing my dosing needs.

Other then that the only other supplement I use is limewater in my ATO. If I'm not in an experimental phase I rarely ever test any parameters unless I see something off in my display.

Limewater in my ATO for a balanced calc/alk.

My feeding is done via the apex AFS and is set to feed 4 times a day. Then I'll add a sheet of nori each day and 2-3 other feedings of some meaty stuff. I feed a lot.

I have a Reversed Undergravel Filter topped with dolomite in my sump that I have no idea if it does anything filtering wise but it never has any vacancy left due to all the little critters having babies in it. I will never have a tank with out a RUGF.

I have always been a fan of harvesting algae. Right now I have an ATS and do a quick scrape across the screen every two weeks.

I dose vinegar as a carbon source to feed bacteria. This is my main means of maintaining lower nitrates (near 0 and always undetectable via my test kits.) and lower phosphates. I like to keep my PO4 around .04 - .08 I also find the bacteria a good baseline food source along with the acetate for some organisms. If my phosphates go over .9 then I might add some GFO but usually that only happens because I screwed something up. If by chance it's very high then I might look at using my diatom filter and some lanthanum chloride.

Which brings me to the diatom XL filter. Periodically (like once or twice a year) I will create a typhoon in my tank and put the diatom filter online for a few hours. Another PaulB influence.

Skimmer. Because I like them. I really don't see them as being all that efficient at filtering. They do some and I really like the consistency of the one I'm using now. It's got a neck cleaner as well and a 5 gallon bucket for the skimmate to go to that I dump periodically. My apex alerts me when it's ready or full full. I see the skimmer though as a good means to remove excess bacteria (which helps remove nutrients they've consumed.) and a good aerator.

And yes, I periodically scrape the display glass. I have a Tunze care magnet I absolutely LOVE.

That's pretty much it for my 180 mixed reef.


On my 20 long mantis tank w/ softies it's very easy. All I do for it is a 4 gallon quick changing via a pump and some tubing once a week. I don't hall buckets. I never have and never will even when I didn't have an automatic water change setup. I have the small tunze care magnet for it. No other filtering, dosing, or maintenance.

Otherwise I sit and enjoy watching both tanks. Periodically I'll get into some mood and start some playing around and I usually screw something up and wait for it to settle back down by doing nothing but what is described above.

 

[jason2459]

:thumbsup:

watch out they're going to give you the whole "but.. but.. you don't know what trace elements you're missing though" and even if you're successful for 50 years one day it may crash so your success can never be proven lol

btw, I have absolutely nothing to hide or could possibly lie about. My entire reefing experience since starting back up after loosing everything I first had to a historic flood is in my journal thread here in RC. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673282


I'm completely open to old and new research and developments in how we can maintain a reef tank. Notice I say "We." We're both in the same hobby and should be enjoying what we do and not worry if someone else doesn't do it exactly the same.

Not understanding what is missing is a valid concern. Glennf to me has proven he can succeed. If it does crash tomorrow then I hope we can learn why. But going a decade is a milestone in my book.

 

[CStrickland]

we're both in the same hobby and should be enjoying what we do and not worry if someone else doesn't do it exactly the same.

+1

 

[Green Chromis]

if you don't have the time or the equipment necessary to aid the research of this method then why chime in? your comments become irrelevant to the thread topic. this is why I said there's always that NSW person that ignorantly joins the thread.

:fish1: Hi John, sorry you feel that way, maybe I stated my answer the wrong way, let me try this again. I am not against you nor anyone else trying to mimic what nature has been doing for billions of years, in fact if you succeed in your research and develop a way that makes you happy, great. Myself and most of all the other hobbyist that have a salt water system, don't have the lab grade equipment to test for every element in salt water or their correct concentrations. Your way of adding all these different elements in the correct concentrations as NSW is basically the same as doing water changes as we are both try to accomplish the same thing, and that is to build a living and thriving ecosystem that will support the animals we are trying keep. Their really is no such thing as no water changes, every time you add an element to your system to bring it up to the correct concentration as NSW you are doing a type of water change, are you not. We have different ways of accomplishing this and both seem to work as of now, but in your method, we will need a lot more time, and a lot more research to establish, if this method of changing the water parameters is ideal for our family members we are trying to keep. This is why I do NSW changes, as this is where my family members in my salt water system originated from, and I am trying my best to let them live and thrive in my system. I wish you the best in your and others research in trying to accomplish running a system without water changes, but as of now every time you add or reduce an element in your system to make their environment better for them, you are doing a water change. Sorry, I have to cut this short, as I'm going out in the boat to collect some more NSW for a water change, just that my method is different then yours, in the way we add or subtract the elements that make up our water. One last thing, will you wish me luck in my endeavor to keep a healthy system, as I will you. Sure hope I catch a few fish for dinner , any ways good luck in your endeavor. :fish1:

 

[FarmerTy]

Generalizations there. Doing water changes can be made to sound just as easy. Lets not make it a measuring contest but I don't mind sharing methods used. [emoji481]

I also use an Apex and have most everything automated. I do automatic water changes of ~1% daily via a spectrapure that spreads it out over 155 times per day. I have a mixing container (50g brute) that I fill up every few weeks (around once I month I think) with 300gpd RO/DI unit (has 3 or 4 DI stages to conserve DI and it's done a terrific job of that). It's got switches and floats etc to let me know when it's ready to be filled and is filled. I have it setup to do those notifications that I just have to dump in a single bag of cheap w/ free shipping IO I would buy in bulk and it will mix to 35ppt. No measuring needed. A quick refractometer check lets me know as well. I then add 1/2 cup of bulk Mg(chloride/sulfate mix 7/1 per g). I have to mix that once in a blue moon. I see this as a small insurance policy on unknowns that need exported and imported. Plus the knowns greatly reducing my dosing needs.

Other then that the only other supplement I use is limewater in my ATO. If I'm not in an experimental phase I rarely ever test any parameters unless I see something off in my display.

Limewater in my ATO for a balanced calc/alk.

My feeding is done via the apex AFS and is set to feed 4 times a day. Then I'll add a sheet of nori each day and 2-3 other feedings of some meaty stuff. I feed a lot.

I have a Reversed Undergravel Filter topped with dolomite in my sump that I have no idea if it does anything filtering wise but it never has any vacancy left due to all the little critters having babies in it. I will never have a tank with out a RUGF.

I have always been a fan of harvesting algae. Right now I have an ATS and do a quick scrape across the screen every two weeks.

I dose vinegar as a carbon source to feed bacteria. This is my main means of maintaining lower nitrates (near 0 and always undetectable via my test kits.) and lower phosphates. I like to keep my PO4 around .04 - .08 I also find the bacteria a good baseline food source along with the acetate for some organisms. If my phosphates go over .9 then I might add some GFO but usually that only happens because I screwed something up. If by chance it's very high then I might look at using my diatom filter and some lanthanum chloride.

Which brings me to the diatom XL filter. Periodically (like once or twice a year) I will create a typhoon in my tank and put the diatom filter online for a few hours. Another PaulB influence.

Skimmer. Because I like them. I really don't see them as being all that efficient at filtering. They do some and I really like the consistency of the one I'm using now. It's got a neck cleaner as well and a 5 gallon bucket for the skimmate to go to that I dump periodically. My apex alerts me when it's ready or full full. I see the skimmer though as a good means to remove excess bacteria (which helps remove nutrients they've consumed.) and a good aerator.

And yes, I periodically scrape the display glass. I have a Tunze care magnet I absolutely LOVE.

That's pretty much it for my 180 mixed reef.


On my 20 long mantis tank w/ softies it's very easy. All I do for it is a 4 gallon quick changing via a pump and some tubing once a week. I don't hall buckets. I never have and never will even when I didn't have an automatic water change setup. I have the small tunze care magnet for it. No other filtering, dosing, or maintenance.

Otherwise I sit and enjoy watching both tanks. Periodically I'll get into some mood and start some playing around and I usually screw something up and wait for it to settle back down by doing nothing but what is described above.

It sounds like we are kindred spirits in laziness, and I apologize for inferring anything incorrectly about your system.

So my lingering question is this... you literally have it setup to not even need water changes in my experience... why still do them? Have you tried it before? Gone past 6 months or something and found negative effects? Still like to do it for insurance? Already have the equipment and the setup so figured might as well? This is a question of curiosity here now, not trying to shove no water changes down your throat.

 

[jason2459]

It sounds like we are kindred spirits in laziness, and I apologize for inferring anything incorrectly about your system.

So my lingering question is this... you literally have it setup to not even need water changes in my experience... why still do them? Have you tried it before? Gone past 6 months or something and found negative effects? Still like to do it for insurance? Already have the equipment and the setup so figured might as well? This is a question of curiosity here now, not trying to shove no water changes down your throat.

I have gone a few months before with out water changes here and there before I got my automated setup. I would notice degradation and more need to clean the glass. It is one part of many things I do that helps. I see no reason not to continue. I see nothing but positive effects with the water changes. I have no idea what all it removes but I do know it includes at some level unwanted nutrients/ions/minerals/toxins/etc. I know my skimmer isn't going to pull it all out.

I'm not into using filter socks and the maintenance in using those. I used filter socks when I first setup my 180 and realized quickly it's not for me. I really hate the maintenance of using GFO so I setup other things like algae harvesting and carbon dosing. GFO isn't really that expensive if you get into regenerating it so that's not a concern.

Basic IO is perfect for me as it doesn't have any organics, numbers closely match NSW, and provides a lot of the base elements that would need to be added or replenished anyway and is cheap. I found I needed to bump up Mg a little in the fresh salt mix once and add the same amount each time so I don't retest constantly.

Limewater in my ATO covers the two major elements that get depleted the fastest. It's also the main driver in keeping my pH in a more optimal range.

Then with all the food I feed pretty much covers the rest of anything that would be wanted added including those vitamins and aminos that I didn't want in the salt mix. Of course there's stuff in there I don't want which circles back around to the water changes helping to reduce that unwanted build up along with the other methods of export mentioned above.

I see everything I'm doing as working together as a whole and complements each other.

 

[Dugless]

From what I understand, isn't the Glennf tank a limited water change setup. It's not as if he has gone 10 years without any kind of water change, right?

 

[Dugless]

According to some quick googling, it looks like he ran his tank for 3 years before losing some SPS and LPS, and then 5 years before it crashed. It sounds as if he struggled with high levels of PO4.

 

[FarmerTy]

I have gone a few months before with out water changes here and there before I got my automated setup. I would notice degradation and more need to clean the glass. It is one part of many things I do that helps. I see no reason not to continue. I see nothing but positive effects with the water changes. I have no idea what all it removes but I do know it includes at some level unwanted nutrients/ions/minerals/toxins/etc. I know my skimmer isn't going to pull it all out.

I'm not into using filter socks and the maintenance in using those. I used filter socks when I first setup my 180 and realized quickly it's not for me. I really hate the maintenance of using GFO so I setup other things like algae harvesting and carbon dosing. GFO isn't really that expensive if you get into regenerating it so that's not a concern.

Basic IO is perfect for me as it doesn't have any organics, numbers closely match NSW, and provides a lot of the base elements that would need to be added or replenished anyway and is cheap. I found I needed to bump up Mg a little in the fresh salt mix once and add the same amount each time so I don't retest constantly.

Limewater in my ATO covers the two major elements that get depleted the fastest. It's also the main driver in keeping my pH in a more optimal range.

Then with all the food I feed pretty much covers the rest of anything that would be wanted added including those vitamins and aminos that I didn't want in the salt mix. Of course there's stuff in there I don't want which circles back around to the water changes helping to reduce that unwanted build up along with the other methods of export mentioned above.

I see everything I'm doing as working together as a whole and complements each other.

That's funny because I hate the thought of cleaning a turf scrubber every couple of weeks so I'd rather change GFO 1x/month. It's hilarious what seems like a chore to one person is not a chore to another. You see GFO as the chore and prefer the ATS and I see the opposite. It's like how my wife and I look at household chores... I'll clean dishes until I die but won't touch the bathroom with a 10' pole. She feels the opposite.

No filter socks here... remember, we're both lazy. Haha. My CaRX is your kalk. So I would hypothesize that running GFO would take care of the the only difference in the negatives you see without water changes... i.e. wiping down the glass less and a degradation in coral health... Because that's exactly when I know that my GFO probably needs to be swapped out... when I get more dusting on the glass and my corals don't look as perky.

Now, again, that's not accounting for all the "unknowns" that I recognize as well may not be taken care of during this process. None of those unknowns have crept up on me yet in 4.5 years of no water changes (between two systems). Hopefully one day if an unknown creeps up, I can find out what it is so we can see how much longer we can go after that! GlennF style!

Again, not trying to shove no water changes down your throat. I'm just hypothesizing that a simple GFO addition to your regiment would probably negate the need for water changes in your current setup... assuming no "unknowns" creep up. On that note, I see why you still do them to avoid any of these unknowns and also avoid using GFO. I don't think anybody would ever refute the fact that water changes do good in our hobby.

 

[3dees]

oh and 3dees yes you're missing something it was already said earlier that this was to have a sense of accomplishment as like in all hobbies when one gets really experienced they seek greater challenges but i wouldn't expect you to know anything about that [/QUOTE]

great answer. I didn't say it was wrong. I was just asking. guess I'll have to wait until I'm such an expert as you seem to be before asking anything.

 

[Bent]

This was what the original tank looked like after one year without water changes:

You like hauling buckets that much?

I'll never understand how people can jam coral so close together. Every time I do it's WW3 in the tank and something dies.

That's amazing btw. My tanks never look like that.

 

[mhucasey]

I'll never understand how people can jam coral so close together. Every time I do it's WW3 in the tank and something dies.

That's amazing btw. My tanks never look like that.

Thanks very much, I love gardening with animals
The key is a deep tank so that the corals aren't as close to each other as they appear, and lots of acropora- they can grow close to each other without too much warfare. I ultimately ran out of room and added a second tank to the system

 

[Bent]

It's amazing bro. Amazing.