no water changes, no nitrate?

joshPensacola

New member
so im on another forum where a member says he does a 10% wc every six months and has zero nitrates and phosphates. he has fish and corals in his tank, im not sure about size of tank, live rock, sand bed, or really anything else about his tank.

but im confused on how this works. i have around 600-700lbs of rock, dsb, fuge, not many fish, and a very big powerful skimmer. i still have nitrates, and if i didnt run GFO i would probably have phosphates.

i dont intend on not doing my weekly water changes but i am very curious to how he can go so long and not have nitrate.

i had one point where i had thought i had zero nitrate, but i had just not shook the API test kits well, or at all.
 
I am preparing for the flames...but I dont do weekly water changes either, or even monthly ones. I change 10G every 3-4 months, and have 0 nitrates, and phosphates below .03 (undetectable on salifert kit at double strength testing, but I know I must have trace amounts because my glass gets film algae and my overflow grows algae). I run a DSB with almost powder fine sand, large clean up crew with about 100 mini hermits and 75 snails of different types, good skimmer, and a fuge in my sump. I dont use GFO or phosphate products. I add about 2g of rodi daily, and every 2-3 weeks I add RODI with salt to bump my salinity up if it drops a little

I have a 75G with SPS corals, two lyretail anthias, a mono, a clownfish, and 4 chromis. I feed a frozen cube of mysis twice a day. I dose ca and alk daily on pumps, and manually add Red Sea Reef Energy A and B every other day. About once every 2 weeks I target feed some corals reef chili.

I have been testing at least once a week since november, and was testing multiple times a week before that. I havent seen nitrates since my cycle completed over 6 months ago. Bought a new kit just to double check...still showed 0. Tested another tank of mine that has a noticable algae problem and a canister filter, got a reading of 20 on both test kits. Somehow my 75G tank doesnt have measureable nitrates. I only do the 10g water change to siphon and stir up the top 1/2" of my dsb, mostly in dead spots in the back corners.

I have wondered if the algae mat that grows inside my overflow is acting as an algae scrubber assisting with the nitrates and phosphates

I put a video I took of my tank yesterday in post 15 here if you want to see my corals and fish
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2212035
 
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they are relying on the phosphate sponge in the substrate. calcium carbonate is a fantastic phosphate binder. just like GFO and aluminum oxide. the more calcium carbonate the more binding sites available for the phosphates. lucky for us, the bacteria are able to remove phosphates from calcium carbonate. unfortunately there is gravity. over time phosphates migrate slowly down through the substrate until they reach the bottom of the tank. at which point the process stops, luckily for us i stops with the calcium carbonate having the last say since it is a true chemical binding reaction. the deeper and finer the calcium carbonate substrate the longer the phosphate sponge will act like a sponge until needing to be cleaned.

water changes do little for controlling nitrates and phosphates. water is just a carrier, it is not the source of the nutrients. that is detritus. if the detritus is able to work its way down through a substrate then there will be a low level of nutrients in the water column.

here is a chart showing the various nutrient export methods we use and which nutrients they go after. take special note of the arrow directions and the number of arrows going into and out of the substrate and algae (ATS's/Chaeto). note which methods make the most use of the arrows.

phosphate_graphic_4_square_original.png


ATS do not remove phosphates from the system until they are exported. until that point the system is still becoming more eutrophic from feeding the system. looking at the chart above note that the phosphates that ATS/Chaeto (even GFO for that matter) get to only become available after the bacteria have released them from their organic sources. they are after the fact phosphate removers. a day late and a dollar short to the phosphate party. they are not helping to lower nutrient levels at the source. like turning on the fan in the bathroom to remove the stink instead of just flushing the toilet.

define 0 nitrates and phosphates. hobby test kits are not able to give us the precision we need to get to the zero level for algae growth. phosphates on the reef are 0.005ppm, nitrates less than 0.1ppm. these would be zero levels for what we are talking about. unless we are reading to this accuracy, having anybody say they are reading zero is incorrect. the only indicator we have that our levels are here is if there is algae growing in the system. if non-hermatypic algae is growing in the system, then the levels are above oligotrophic level, the levels listed above.

any stirring or siphoning of a substrate allows new resources to enter the phosphate sponge and removes bacterial flock that can clog the sponge allowing the sponge to function properly. there is nothing wrong with using a substrate for what it does best bind phosphates, but in order for it to do its job it must be maintained just like any filter or sponge. it needs to be cleaned before it becomes so clogged that it can no longer bind any new phosphates.

from being on the forums for a while. the average time it seems for a substrate to start showing signs of eutrophication is one year for each inch of substrate in the display. obviously more phosphates sinks in other areas of the system can extend this, but this seems to be the formula. it is always a good idea to ask somebody who says they have zero phosphates/nitrates and does not do regular water changes how old the tank is and how deep is the substrate. it absolutely is possible and is shown all of the time, that this "works", but it will only "work" until the sponge is "full". at which point it needs to be cleaned. even in SW we need to clean up after our pets. we can not just hide it in the litter box forever. :(

G~
 
they are relying on the phosphate sponge in the substrate. calcium carbonate is a fantastic phosphate binder. just like GFO and aluminum oxide. the more calcium carbonate the more binding sites available for the phosphates. lucky for us, the bacteria are able to remove phosphates from calcium carbonate. unfortunately there is gravity. over time phosphates migrate slowly down through the substrate until they reach the bottom of the tank. at which point the process stops, luckily for us i stops with the calcium carbonate having the last say since it is a true chemical binding reaction. the deeper and finer the calcium carbonate substrate the longer the phosphate sponge will act like a sponge until needing to be cleaned.

water changes do little for controlling nitrates and phosphates. water is just a carrier, it is not the source of the nutrients. that is detritus. if the detritus is able to work its way down through a substrate then there will be a low level of nutrients in the water column.

here is a chart showing the various nutrient export methods we use and which nutrients they go after. take special note of the arrow directions and the number of arrows going into and out of the substrate and algae (ATS's/Chaeto). note which methods make the most use of the arrows.

phosphate_graphic_4_square_original.png


ATS do not remove phosphates from the system until they are exported. until that point the system is still becoming more eutrophic from feeding the system. looking at the chart above note that the phosphates that ATS/Chaeto (even GFO for that matter) get to only become available after the bacteria have released them from their organic sources. they are after the fact phosphate removers. a day late and a dollar short to the phosphate party. they are not helping to lower nutrient levels at the source. like turning on the fan in the bathroom to remove the stink instead of just flushing the toilet.

define 0 nitrates and phosphates. hobby test kits are not able to give us the precision we need to get to the zero level for algae growth. phosphates on the reef are 0.005ppm, nitrates less than 0.1ppm. these would be zero levels for what we are talking about. unless we are reading to this accuracy, having anybody say they are reading zero is incorrect. the only indicator we have that our levels are here is if there is algae growing in the system. if non-hermatypic algae is growing in the system, then the levels are above oligotrophic level, the levels listed above.

any stirring or siphoning of a substrate allows new resources to enter the phosphate sponge and removes bacterial flock that can clog the sponge allowing the sponge to function properly. there is nothing wrong with using a substrate for what it does best bind phosphates, but in order for it to do its job it must be maintained just like any filter or sponge. it needs to be cleaned before it becomes so clogged that it can no longer bind any new phosphates.

from being on the forums for a while. the average time it seems for a substrate to start showing signs of eutrophication is one year for each inch of substrate in the display. obviously more phosphates sinks in other areas of the system can extend this, but this seems to be the formula. it is always a good idea to ask somebody who says they have zero phosphates/nitrates and does not do regular water changes how old the tank is and how deep is the substrate. it absolutely is possible and is shown all of the time, that this "works", but it will only "work" until the sponge is "full". at which point it needs to be cleaned. even in SW we need to clean up after our pets. we can not just hide it in the litter box forever. :(

G~
 
do the weekly or monthly waterchange and dont rely on products that say no waterchanges necessary etc cos if it doesnt go out it impregnates everything until saturated and then tank crashes

sent from my galaxy s3
 
That is how I have always thought about it. You can get away with it for a long time but when you cross that threshold it can become very difficult to control the nastiness. But I think reefindude response put it in much more detail!
 
So if I have a 4" DSB, whats the best way to prevent my system from crashing in 4 years? Monthly vacuuming of the top 1" of my DSB? I run very very fine sand, and when I feed I only pour in a tiny bit of food at a time and watch that everything is eaten before I add more. This way I make sure food doesnt end up behind my rocks rotting. All my parameters now are stable and good. Tank has been running for about 10 months, 40lbs of live rock came from my established 6+ year reef, and the other 40 lbs was living in a friends house in a tank with just powerheads and no fish, corals or lighting for 1 year, so it was really clean

ammonia - 0
nitrate - 0
nitrite - 0
phosphate <.03
calcium - 420
alk - 9
 
this is one of those tough things to fix. you are doing everything right. the problem is that the substrate creates its own detritus within itself. the same way the LR "cooking" does. the bacteria working on the phosphates die within the substrate and this bacterial mulm is what gets worked down slowly to clog the process. any amount of detrital removal you can do to any substrate helps. the deeper you can remove the detritus the better. some people just siphon away bits of substrate every water change, then add more substrate when needed. there are options, it just matters what fits your style of acceptable maintenance. the point is to understand what is going on in the system phosphate wise.

not to sound like a substrate hater again. it all boils down to designing a system for a particular trophic level (or must have critter). BB fantastic for oligotrophic. substrates fantastic for more eutrophic. trying to do one in the other leads to some compromises in maintenance.

G~
 
Josh,

I think if you search the other forums you'll fine a few threads about people who do very few or no water changes for l o n g periods of time.

Personally, I do a 25g (7-8%) water change once every 4-6 weeks. I don't do it for nitrates or phosphates because they always test at zero and I have no algae issues. I have 200-225lbs of LR, a 2' x 2' refugium with 2 different macro algaes that I don't harvest from very often, a 2' x 2' DSB with 6-8" of sand, a great skimmer and a diy coil denitrator. I don't run GFO or carbon and I don't do any carbon dosing except for a small amount of sodium ascorbate (vitamin C powder per Randy's formula).

I do water changes to add in trace elements. My DT is full (very full) of sps and lps corals and they are growing like weeds. The bigger corals get, the more new growth they add on; it's not that the rate of growth is better, it's just that there is more growing tips and edges so you get more new material (as is commonly the case, bigger is better). :beer:
 
Very interesting thread.
And being that this is the "Advanced Topics" forum, I'm sure I'll be "set straight" for what I'm about to say...
Reefin' Dude, I'm pretty sure it's not your intent, but it sounds like you are making a case for a reverse-flow undergravel filter.
I have a large tank I've been dragging my feet on setting up, mostly because I'm on the fence whether or not to install a RFUGF. I know it's considered old-school, but it I don't want dead spots in the tank's substrate, and this seems like a good way to prevent this. It could have a low flow percolating through it day-to-day, and could ramp up the flow once every week or so to "flush" any buildup from the sand. I know nitrates are a concern with a setup such as this, but there are ways to control them if they would become an issue.
Let the bashing begin....
 
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Tigé21v- the advantages of a RUGF have to do with elemental carbon if the substrate is deep enough. it would allow nitrification to occur on both sides of the substrate. more like what is going on in LR. would i recommend doing one. no, not really. the problem of detrital build up will still occur both in the center of the substrate (this can be solved by siphoning) and in the UGF plates. the detritus in the plates is going to very difficult to remove without removing the plates to do it. i believe Paul_b cleans his out every 10 years. at some point the detritus will need to be removed.

Ron- how long has your system been up? is it less in years than your substrate is deep?

G~
 
I am preparing for the flames...but I dont do weekly water changes either,


No flames, just a the simple reality that a 6 month old tank is not a reasonable barometer for the success of the a methodology...


Given your small tank, lack of water changes and the fact that you are grossly overfeeding (enough for a 500 gallon or larger system).... You are enjoying a ticking time bomb. Give it a few years and your will have so much phosphate that you will have no choice but to ditch the rock and start over....
 
So it is not sufficient to just clean the substrate it has to actually be replaced over time ? Is that correct ?
 
for some systems it is reasonable to clean the substrate. if you are able to get to all of the substrate even better. like LR, the substrate can clean itself to some extent. as in the bacteria are able to remove the phosphates from the matrix. unlike LR the bacterial mulm formed by this process works its way deeper into the substrate instead of in all directions like in LR. with enough random flow LR cleans itself. the substrate can not. if you are running a less oligotrophic system, then you can maintain a good nutrient level by cleaning the substrate on a regular basis. if you are going for a true oligotrophic environment it is very difficult to keep the nutrient levels down enough in the substrate and it is usually better to just replace it and start the process over.

it really has to do with what trophic level you are most interested in keeping.

G~
 
Not sure why more people don't take advantage of sand sifting starfish. I've always had one and always had a decent amount of crabs and never ever had nitrate (knock on wood.)
You need something to clean out your sand bed why not let nature handle it for you.
 
reefin dude.

would you feel comfortable saying that organisms such as stars, snails, crabs or conches would help to clean the sand enough to prolong having to change the substate?
 
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