Not Safe For Acrylic?
- Thread starter 46bfinGA
- Start date
melev
Well-known member
I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days, and if I had an acrylic tank and was worried about excess heat but wanted to use the VorTech pumps anyway, I'd probably run them at a slower rate and add an extra pump or two to get the flow I desired.
As we all know, we each have to tailor the equipment to suit the needs of our tank. That includes the room we're using, where the plugs are located, how the tank is set up, the material and thickness used, and what the livestock can tolerate. And each of us tune our equipment to work for our needs based on those parameters.
Some of us use ballvalves to dial in the flow, dimmers to adjust the lighting, and settings on controllers to limit how our pumps run and/or cycle. It's not be a good option for me to run my VorTechs on 100% flow around the clock, so I don't.
As we all know, we each have to tailor the equipment to suit the needs of our tank. That includes the room we're using, where the plugs are located, how the tank is set up, the material and thickness used, and what the livestock can tolerate. And each of us tune our equipment to work for our needs based on those parameters.
Some of us use ballvalves to dial in the flow, dimmers to adjust the lighting, and settings on controllers to limit how our pumps run and/or cycle. It's not be a good option for me to run my VorTechs on 100% flow around the clock, so I don't.
Spending another $4-800 to run the pumps at half speed doesnt make sense to me.I wouldnt want 6 powerheads in my tank if I could get by with 4 at full speed.
I may end up with 2 Vortechs anyways and I will give them a shot and see how they run.I just bought 4 -Tunze 6100's and the multicontroller as well ,so I should have plenty of flow.
I may end up with 2 Vortechs anyways and I will give them a shot and see how they run.I just bought 4 -Tunze 6100's and the multicontroller as well ,so I should have plenty of flow.
mpdharley
Active member
I run all three of my pumps in reef crest mode, with one master, two slaves, two of them sync'd and one in anti-sync. Given the way that the reef crest mode works, I'm guessing that it will help to keep the heat down since they don't run at full speed all the time. Although, I do have the flow turned all the way up for when they are at the 100% point of the mode.
jnarowe
New member
That's an interesting point Marc, but look at it this way:
I bought into the Vortech line based on the published flow and electrical consumption. So my math gave me a need for 9 pumps x 3200 gph @ 35W for 28,800 gph plus the 4,200 gph from my return pump after head loss. The Vortechs would provide the needed flow for just over 300W, and using equivalent Hammerheads, I would be running at close to 2,500W.
The down-side for me is obvious. But having to use them on pulse or 60% on continuous changes the equation quite a bit. So while it doesn't make sense for you to use them at 100%, for me, it was/is needed. I don't really care about waves per se, and I know that is the "hot" subject in flow these days, but I am concerned with the net flow. It's tough for me to get my head around net flow when creating waves, because as I understand it, a true wave multiplies the flow in some fashion. I just don't undesrstand the math.
I certainly would want randomized flow though in an effort to reduce detritus piles...so that brings me from 9 units to maybe 12. That seems fine to me in terms of net flow, although the $5K seems a bit stiff for the net flow. The one fear I have had since getting the Vortechs (outside the heat issue) has been the upkeep. With 12 pumps, I would have to have at least one out of service at all times just to keep them clean, nevermind a failure of some kind requiring service. Mine have been back and forth so many times now, that when I bought my 5th pump, I still only had 4 mounted. So IME, to keep 12 pumps running on the tank, I would actually need 14 just for a margin of error.
So that brings me back to my request for a fan mod. Being able to run them at 100% for whatever period desired and keep the temp. below 110F seems to be an excellent and marketable solution. I don't think anyone wants to buy an expensive pump only to be able to use it at some percentage of full power.
I bought into the Vortech line based on the published flow and electrical consumption. So my math gave me a need for 9 pumps x 3200 gph @ 35W for 28,800 gph plus the 4,200 gph from my return pump after head loss. The Vortechs would provide the needed flow for just over 300W, and using equivalent Hammerheads, I would be running at close to 2,500W.
The down-side for me is obvious. But having to use them on pulse or 60% on continuous changes the equation quite a bit. So while it doesn't make sense for you to use them at 100%, for me, it was/is needed. I don't really care about waves per se, and I know that is the "hot" subject in flow these days, but I am concerned with the net flow. It's tough for me to get my head around net flow when creating waves, because as I understand it, a true wave multiplies the flow in some fashion. I just don't undesrstand the math.
I certainly would want randomized flow though in an effort to reduce detritus piles...so that brings me from 9 units to maybe 12. That seems fine to me in terms of net flow, although the $5K seems a bit stiff for the net flow. The one fear I have had since getting the Vortechs (outside the heat issue) has been the upkeep. With 12 pumps, I would have to have at least one out of service at all times just to keep them clean, nevermind a failure of some kind requiring service. Mine have been back and forth so many times now, that when I bought my 5th pump, I still only had 4 mounted. So IME, to keep 12 pumps running on the tank, I would actually need 14 just for a margin of error.
So that brings me back to my request for a fan mod. Being able to run them at 100% for whatever period desired and keep the temp. below 110F seems to be an excellent and marketable solution. I don't think anyone wants to buy an expensive pump only to be able to use it at some percentage of full power.
melev
Well-known member
I'm not saying use it at half its potential, I said tailor it to your tank's particular needs. Keep in mind there are plenty of things we use daily at lesser strengths. Your car's speedometer goes much higher than the legal limit. Your oven can broil food as well as just warm it up. Your water heater can be adjusted to match your home's needs. The volume on the TV goes way up, but rarely do any of us leave it on full blast. And so on...
My point was that if there is a problem for acrylic tanks, an adjustment may be necessary on the part of the consumer. Just like we don't use metal scrapers on acrylic tanks. Maybe it is necessary to turn down the flow for acrylic, maybe not.
My own pumps didn't give me a bunch of problems. I sent one back that was bad right out of the box. It was quickly replaced.
The fan-mod might work if it ever comes to fruition, but then again you go right back to 'how loud is the pump' - especially with a fan attached.
My point was that if there is a problem for acrylic tanks, an adjustment may be necessary on the part of the consumer. Just like we don't use metal scrapers on acrylic tanks. Maybe it is necessary to turn down the flow for acrylic, maybe not.
My own pumps didn't give me a bunch of problems. I sent one back that was bad right out of the box. It was quickly replaced.
The fan-mod might work if it ever comes to fruition, but then again you go right back to 'how loud is the pump' - especially with a fan attached.
lamarine23
New member
After reading the other thread I can say their are way too many contributing factors to solely blame this on the vortech pumps. The warning label would have to read as follows:
Do not run pumps at 100% if your room temp is above 80 degrees, not built to appropriate specifications and not cleaned on a regular schedule as pump may contribute to acrylic crazing.
I don't want to be a jerk but I can't find a manufacturer that would build me a tank w/ those dims with that thickness of acrylic and give me a warranty.
I have a customer with a 540 gallon built with acrylic 3/4" ends and 1" on the front and back with 4 vortechs (going on 7-8 months) and no crazing/cracking of any kind.
I am sorry that you had so much trouble with the pumps, but I have sold over 30 of them and I've sent 2 back for repair. My post here is so that people can keep this into perspective, one in thousands sold has had this problem and just so happens that the aquarium it self is not built to specs.
Good luck on what ever you decide to do, it is still a beautiful setup.
Do not run pumps at 100% if your room temp is above 80 degrees, not built to appropriate specifications and not cleaned on a regular schedule as pump may contribute to acrylic crazing.
I don't want to be a jerk but I can't find a manufacturer that would build me a tank w/ those dims with that thickness of acrylic and give me a warranty.
I have a customer with a 540 gallon built with acrylic 3/4" ends and 1" on the front and back with 4 vortechs (going on 7-8 months) and no crazing/cracking of any kind.
I am sorry that you had so much trouble with the pumps, but I have sold over 30 of them and I've sent 2 back for repair. My post here is so that people can keep this into perspective, one in thousands sold has had this problem and just so happens that the aquarium it self is not built to specs.
Good luck on what ever you decide to do, it is still a beautiful setup.
sherm71tank
Premium Member
These comments about Jonathan's tank not being built to spec are out of line. You don't know how his tank was built or what kind of bracing was used on it.
And Marc, comparing an aquarium water pump to an oven, car speedometer or tv volume? All the pumps I own run full blast or nothing, except my two vortechs which I am still playing around with. When I do run them at 100% they get VERY hot and my room temperature is almost always 65-70 and sometimes cooler than that so all this chit chat about Jonathans tank room being to blame is crap as well. What about the guys who live in hotter regions like Florida? You think their tank rooms aren't going to get hotter than 80? Give me a break!
And Marc, comparing an aquarium water pump to an oven, car speedometer or tv volume? All the pumps I own run full blast or nothing, except my two vortechs which I am still playing around with. When I do run them at 100% they get VERY hot and my room temperature is almost always 65-70 and sometimes cooler than that so all this chit chat about Jonathans tank room being to blame is crap as well. What about the guys who live in hotter regions like Florida? You think their tank rooms aren't going to get hotter than 80? Give me a break!
lamarine23
New member
Easy now....Lets discuss.
Aquariums in general are built with certain thickness of material in order to with stand the pressure.
I didn't ask the manufacturers which thickness they would recommend but they did say that the thicknes used, which is 3/4 (the top panel being over built doesnt do much) and is under all standards of the aquarium industry.
You don't have to get all upset, call some legit companies and see what they say and I'm not talking the local plastic shop either
I live in a particular hot part of California (central) it gets up to 114 degrees sometimes that doesn't mean I let my house get that hot. Common Sense if the ambient air is hotter or is as hot as the pump it won't help cool it any, and of course the pump is going to get hot on the outside that is what it is designed to do, doesn't mean that the acrylic gets that hot.
Aquariums in general are built with certain thickness of material in order to with stand the pressure.
I didn't ask the manufacturers which thickness they would recommend but they did say that the thicknes used, which is 3/4 (the top panel being over built doesnt do much) and is under all standards of the aquarium industry.
You don't have to get all upset, call some legit companies and see what they say and I'm not talking the local plastic shop either
I live in a particular hot part of California (central) it gets up to 114 degrees sometimes that doesn't mean I let my house get that hot. Common Sense if the ambient air is hotter or is as hot as the pump it won't help cool it any, and of course the pump is going to get hot on the outside that is what it is designed to do, doesn't mean that the acrylic gets that hot.
Last edited:
jnarowe
New member
hmmm. ambient temp. averages 78F and the pumps run at an external temp. of 135F - 145F with spikes above 150F...so how do you figure that "Common Sense if the ambient air is hotter or is as hot as the pump it won't help cool it any..."?
It's not like my tank room is 135F you know. I realize that there is more than one multiple involved in my particular situation, but when it's all said and done, there is some element of risk running Vortechs on acrylic. And it has been stated by an authority on using acrylic in our application that the working temp. of acrylic is reduced due to the stress of having pressure applied to it, regardless of its thickness.
That seems pretty straight forward to me. His statement that when under stress, ie. filled with water, the working temp. is actually around 140F rather than the spec. of 180F. I can visit any number of Vortech owners and get external temps. above 130F with ambient temps. below 70F.
So what we have found out is that when certain elements are combined, there is an increased risk of failure. Maybe I should do a poll and find out what the average temp. of a Vortech is? Or would that not fit into your agenda?
It's not like my tank room is 135F you know. I realize that there is more than one multiple involved in my particular situation, but when it's all said and done, there is some element of risk running Vortechs on acrylic. And it has been stated by an authority on using acrylic in our application that the working temp. of acrylic is reduced due to the stress of having pressure applied to it, regardless of its thickness.
That seems pretty straight forward to me. His statement that when under stress, ie. filled with water, the working temp. is actually around 140F rather than the spec. of 180F. I can visit any number of Vortech owners and get external temps. above 130F with ambient temps. below 70F.
So what we have found out is that when certain elements are combined, there is an increased risk of failure. Maybe I should do a poll and find out what the average temp. of a Vortech is? Or would that not fit into your agenda?
sherm71tank
Premium Member
Well, I don't have an "agenda". I like the pumps alot as a matter of fact and will probably get at least one more for my 90 but that doesn't change how hot they run. Oh, and I'm not upset 
Last edited:
lamarine23
New member
*Evil Laugh* Yes my agenda to take over the world by means of the vortech pump.
Come on dude get over it.
The pump (heat sink) is not in direct contact with the acrylic, in fact there should be a rubber gasket.
Look I just want people to have all the info so they can make there own judgement on how safe the product is, I won't risk being sued by a client on a product that I didn't believe in. And I do believe!
Come on dude get over it.
The pump (heat sink) is not in direct contact with the acrylic, in fact there should be a rubber gasket.
Look I just want people to have all the info so they can make there own judgement on how safe the product is, I won't risk being sued by a client on a product that I didn't believe in. And I do believe!
Last edited:
lamarine23
New member
sherm glad your not mad and we can discuss this out in the open.
Jesse
Jesse
lamarine23
New member
I didn't say that, they are hot but not to the point that I can't keep my hands on them. Like I said though that is the heat sink which is designed to draw the heat outward it is not the actual temp of the tank/acrylic.
lamarine23
New member
I also have two in my store...I can turn those up for a day and check to see how hot the acrylic feels tomorrow. One problem that I did run into was the melting of the middle portion of the gasket becuase it was rubbing but all I did was cut out a hole in the center and the pumps definetly ran cooler after that. That is only in the 540 gallon because it did not utilize the spacer and the magnet is in direct contact with the gasket.
jnarowe
New member
Yup, I did the same thing. I had a horrible time with rubbing in the beginning and Eco-Tech and I surmised that was the cheif cause of the early crazing.
But I have to say that I think when using these on thicker panels without the spacer, that more heat is transferred to the glass. Recently I got one back from Eco-Tech that had a new kind of gasket. It seemed to be some sort of neoprene, and this gasket is not doing well. It is very soft from the heat.
Do you have an infrared thermometer at the store? I realize that they are not the most accurate measuring device, but after all I have been through, I feel they are a very important part of my tank support equipment.
It would be interesting to find out what your external temps. are. And I wonder if Eco-Tech has any temp. grid that correlates external temp. with internal temp. That's a key question I have had for some time now.
But I have to say that I think when using these on thicker panels without the spacer, that more heat is transferred to the glass. Recently I got one back from Eco-Tech that had a new kind of gasket. It seemed to be some sort of neoprene, and this gasket is not doing well. It is very soft from the heat.
Do you have an infrared thermometer at the store? I realize that they are not the most accurate measuring device, but after all I have been through, I feel they are a very important part of my tank support equipment.
It would be interesting to find out what your external temps. are. And I wonder if Eco-Tech has any temp. grid that correlates external temp. with internal temp. That's a key question I have had for some time now.
Similar threads
