Ocellaris can't get past day 2/3 :( *pics*

[MrGone]

Hi everyone! I was wondering if I could get your opinions on our setup and what we are doing wrong.

We have a breeding pair of Ocellaris clowns, their home is a dedicated 75 gallon reef tank. We use tiles for them to lay their eggs which they do like clock work every 21 days.

On the night before they hatch we move their tile into a 20 long tank that has two dividers in it. The tank is painted black on all sides, including the bottom. The transfer is made using tank water from the 75g with the parents in it.

As you can see in the picture above, we also have two five gallon buckets where we cultivate rotifers. We currently feed them using RGComplete, although in the future I'd like to learn more about how to grow their food.

Also, while we haven't even begun to get close enough to the stage where we'll need it, I ordered a variety pack of the TDO chromaboost food

This is how we place the eggs in the fry tank. From our understanding we need higher flow until they are hatched, then we turn down the air so the circulation in the tank isn't as violent.

This time around we apparently miscounted the days and pulled the tile a day early. We've done this in the past and it had a dismal hatch rate, but still had survivors (until day 3)

We have a number of questions, because we've tried a number of things and no matter what can't seem to get past day 2/3 and it is incredibly discouraging. This has to be our 10th try easily.

1. How much light is too much light for the fry? We use a 9w compact florescent from a picotope but we keep it far away and defuse it even further.

2. I've read most use an 18 hour light cycle. My Dad has a tendency to cut it down to 8-12 like the aquariums, where from my understanding if you run 18 it gives them more opportunity to feed?

3. Is how we have the tank painted correct? is it ok to have the clear baffles? I'm tempted to paint a 2.5g tank with a white bottom and black on all the sides?

4. Is there such a thing as too many rotifers?

5. We scoop rotifers out of the bucket and strain them through a coffee filter. Then we rinse the coffee filter in a container with the fry tank water, then add the water back to the fry tank (or incorporate this into a water change with the new water having rotifers in it). Is this the correct way to do this?

6. I've seen pictures with the tile turned upside down with the airstone directly under it, is this more effective?

7. Should we be adding RGcomplete to the fry water?

We've had some where it seems like the entire tile hatches, but we lose so many of them, and by the end of the 3rd day they are all dead.

We run a temperature of 80*F in both the fry tank and rotifer tanks, and and a salinity of 1.021-1.022 in both as well.

Thank you so much for your help and input, we appreciate it greatly!

 

[mwilliams62]

1. How much light is too much light for the fry? We use a 9w compact florescent from a picotope but we keep it far away and defuse it even further. I used a regular 40w lamp/bulb and covered the top of the tank with three sheets of white paper after the first 24 hours of hatching.

2. I've read most use an 18 hour light cycle. My Dad has a tendency to cut it down to 8-12 like the aquariums, where from my understanding if you run 18 it gives them more opportunity to feed? I left my light on 24hrs since it was diffused for the first 4 days

3. Is how we have the tank painted correct? is it ok to have the clear baffles? I'm tempted to paint a 2.5g tank with a white bottom and black on all the sides? Tank is painted incorrectly – Only three sides are to be painted black, bottom of tank is to be painted white, front of tank no paint. I would say no baffles in the tank with them. Tank temp should be between 80-83ish.

4. Is there such a thing as too many rotifers? That I don’t know about because I have only been able to get one batch hatched and sold since last June.

5. We scoop rotifers out of the bucket and strain them through a coffee filter. Then we rinse the coffee filter in a container with the fry tank water, then add the water back to the fry tank (or incorporate this into a water change with the new water having rotifers in it). Is this the correct way to do this? Not to sure on this one. I strained the rotifers in a sieve and dipped the sieve into the fry’s tank making sure I got all the rotifers out and no baby fry stuck in the sieve.

6. I've seen pictures with the tile turned upside down with the airstone directly under it, is this more effective? I believe it is. Mine always hatched in the main tank and I would use a larval trap to collect the fry with and put them into the fry tank.

7. Should we be adding RGcomplete to the fry water? Yes this helps them see the rotifers better to feed on them and feeds the rotifers as well.

If you have lots of time be sure to read this thread very helpful and informative as well.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2209136

Best of luck I am still trying 2 years later.....

 

[reefstew]

First I would buy a sieve for rotifers & use a cup & new water to get them. I would not rinse the sieve in the fry tank as you can cross contaminate the rotifer culture. How many times a day are you feeding the parents & what are you feeding them? Are they just starting to lay eggs or have they been spawning for a while? The first few batches are not worth moving. Can I assume you are not doing any water changes the first 3 days?

 

[MrGone]

1. How much light is too much light for the fry? We use a 9w compact florescent from a picotope but we keep it far away and defuse it even further. I used a regular 40w lamp/bulb and covered the top of the tank with three sheets of white paper after the first 24 hours of hatching.

2. I've read most use an 18 hour light cycle. My Dad has a tendency to cut it down to 8-12 like the aquariums, where from my understanding if you run 18 it gives them more opportunity to feed? I left my light on 24hrs since it was diffused for the first 4 days

3. Is how we have the tank painted correct? is it ok to have the clear baffles? I'm tempted to paint a 2.5g tank with a white bottom and black on all the sides? Tank is painted incorrectly "“ Only three sides are to be painted black, bottom of tank is to be painted white, front of tank no paint. I would say no baffles in the tank with them. Tank temp should be between 80-83ish.

4. Is there such a thing as too many rotifers? That I don't know about because I have only been able to get one batch hatched and sold since last June.

5. We scoop rotifers out of the bucket and strain them through a coffee filter. Then we rinse the coffee filter in a container with the fry tank water, then add the water back to the fry tank (or incorporate this into a water change with the new water having rotifers in it). Is this the correct way to do this? Not to sure on this one. I strained the rotifers in a sieve and dipped the sieve into the fry's tank making sure I got all the rotifers out and no baby fry stuck in the sieve.

6. I've seen pictures with the tile turned upside down with the airstone directly under it, is this more effective? I believe it is. Mine always hatched in the main tank and I would use a larval trap to collect the fry with and put them into the fry tank.

7. Should we be adding RGcomplete to the fry water? Yes this helps them see the rotifers better to feed on them and feeds the rotifers as well.

If you have lots of time be sure to read this thread very helpful and informative as well.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2209136

Best of luck I am still trying 2 years later.....

Thanks a bunch for your reply! I think I'll make some adjustments to the tank, and also I decided to reduce the light brightness as well. we're on day 2 and still losing quite a bit. I'm still researching the sieve, I think the method we use is similar, but that might be easier!

I will definitely read that thread, thank you!

Also would you happen to have a picture of the larval trap? I googled and there are a couple different designs so I'm kinda curious, we might give that a shot next time.

 

[MrGone]

First I would buy a sieve for rotifers & use a cup & new water to get them. I would not rinse the sieve in the fry tank as you can cross contaminate the rotifer culture. How many times a day are you feeding the parents & what are you feeding them? Are they just starting to lay eggs or have they been spawning for a while? The first few batches are not worth moving. Can I assume you are not doing any water changes the first 3 days?

I don't fully understand the cross contamination.

What we currently do is use an old coffee filter housing (it's a metal mesh with a plastic frame) and we use a fresh coffee filter in it. We pour the rotifers from the culture in there, then once we have a good amount we rinse the coffee filter in a container with water from the fry tank, then we put would pour the water with the new rotifers back into the fry tank (although yesterday we started dripping it).

The UPS guy just walked in with the sheet of 50micron filter material, so I'm going to look into making a sieve tonight.

 

[reefstew]

Post # 5 on mwilliams62. I was referring to that.

An easy way to make a sieve is to get a 6" piece of 4" pvc pipe & a pvc slip connector & just place the mesh over the pipe then force on the slip connector.

 

[Postal]

FWIW, RGComplete is meant to be used for growing rotifers not as greenwater in your fry tank. I had much more success when using Rotigreen Omega in the fry tank.

If you are not tinting the fry tank when you add rots, your fry could be starving to death. The phyto gives the rots nutrition and also provides contrast for the larvae to feed more effectively.

 

[MrGone]

Post # 5 on mwilliams62. I was referring to that.

An easy way to make a sieve is to get a 6" piece of 4" pvc pipe & a pvc slip connector & just place the mesh over the pipe then force on the slip connector.

Sweet! can't beat that for simplicity! and it seems like it'll be easier to use than the coffee filter method we do now.

Also good news, the fry are still alive! this is the beginning of the 5th day and they are going strong and looking big!!! *knock on wood*

Also I forgot to answer above, the first few times we were doing water changes the first few days but this time we haven't. Last time we didn't either though :-/

 

[MrGone]

FWIW, RGComplete is meant to be used for growing rotifers not as greenwater in your fry tank. I had much more success when using Rotigreen Omega in the fry tank.

If you are not tinting the fry tank when you add rots, your fry could be starving to death. The phyto gives the rots nutrition and also provides contrast for the larvae to feed more effectively.

We've done it both ways with no success either, but the last few trys I have added RGcomplete to the water. I was completely unaware of Rotigreen Omega, thank you!!! I'll definitely have to order some.

Also I was wondering where are some good places to buy baby brine shrimp? I watched a youtube video a while ago about some where you put the eggs in a soda container full of water, then you siphon out the brine from the bottom and the shells stay on top.

 

[shifty51008]

I order decap bbs from brine shrimp direct.

 

[GreshamH]

There really is no need for NHBBS since you have TDO.

RGC works just fine as a greenwater product. RotiGreen Omega works great as well. We'll have a dedicated GW product out in the APBreed line soon enough though

 

[shifty51008]

I use rgcomplete as greenwater and it works well, i wouldnt see why it couldnt be used for it

 

[DSpate]

If you can't get them past day 2-3 and aren't using green water, thats likely why. Although there are a number of things I can think of from your picture of the larvae tank.

Greenwater - which you can use RGComplete, RG+, RG Omega.. they all work. Some are better than others at being used as greenwater than others. By not adding greenwater, your larvae are looking for rotifers who haven't eaten since being harvest, which makes them white or clear... Rotifers are normally the color of the food they eat. So, for a small larvae, trying to find a clear/white rotifer in clear water... is tough. Greenwater will also help diffuse the light.

Lighting - thats way too bring. It's likely that your rotifers in the tank are majority at the surface, by the light, while the light being so strong, is pushing the larvae to the bottom of the tank. I personally have a little clamp on desk light, that sits over 12" above my tank. It can shine directly into it (normally isn't directly though), but it's not a strong light. I think it's a warm white or something. You can try using paper towel under the light to diffuse it.

Water volume - if thats a 20G tank, and you split it into even sections, you left 6.66G per section. And it looks like the section is only half full. When I pull my tile, I do a 10G WC on the parental tank, and use the full 10G in the larvae tank. It allows the water to not foul as quickly.

Rotifers - there IS such a thing as too much rotifers, specially in a small volume of water like your 3.33G hatching tank. I keep my rotifers to a minimum in the larvae tank, so that I can add more if needed. Rotifers use up oxygen, just like everything else, and they also produce waste. So use moderation. I take my sieve, and only make 2 scoops into my culture for rotifers, if I need to add more later that evening, I'd rather add more, than have my larvae tank turn into a rotifer culture. I also don't rinse them, just scoop out, let the water drain(still dripping), and put in my tank.

I do things a little differently than the norm that I've read online for raising clowns. At day 3, I use a scraper to rub the bottom and break anything lose. About an hour later, I do a 50% water change to get rid of anything on the bottom, and any left over greenwater, then I add freshly harvested rotifers daily. The cleaner your water, the better off the larvae will be. By day 5, I add a small bit of TDO A once per day while doing a 10-20% water change everyday after I scrape the bottom to get excess food out. Day 7, I add a sponge filter and start feeding TDO B1. I still feed freshly harvested rotifers until around day 10, which Meta normally takes place or has already taken place on most of the larvae. But by day 10, I'm only doing about 1 scoop of rotifers per day for the stragglers.

Another thing I'll mention, is I only paint 3 sides of my tank, leaving the front open, so I can mark the water level with a piece of tape once I remove the tile, and can see if the larvae have all hatched. I also have the bottom of the tank painted black, but with the one side open, I can easily see where I'm siphoning. I also don't test the water ever. Personally, using water from my parental tank, keeps that tank healthy with really clean constantly water changes, which in turn is also being used in the larvae tank, and when you're using newer water daily, theres really nothing to test for.

Hope this helps!

 

[MrGone]

First off sorry, I've been meaning to update this thread every couple days but have been crazy busy.

This was a pic I took of the clowns on day 13, this is the first one with a white stripe.

and for some videos, these two are day 8




And this was day 12



Now we're at day 16. Yesterday I noticed the largest clown was starting to develop its second bar! One question I have though is most of the more mature clowns huddle in the corner of the tank, and then there are a couple other groups of 5-6 doing it in other corners. There are some less mature ones (don't have head stripes yet, look silver vs orange, don't have as distinct of a clownfish swim) that still dart around the middle of the tank.

Also we didn't have any deaths between day 8-10, but then we lost a ton of them overnight, and no deaths since day 11. Not sure what happened.

We went from rotifers to a combination of baby brine and TDO A, now we are on TDO B.

We have another batch of eggs that will probably be hatching on saturday night so keep your fingers crossed for them!

 

[DSpate]

First few days, the larvae are not as sensitive to the water parameters like ammonia and such. As they start to develop into fish, gills and such, they are.. Thats why the big waterchange and smaller consistent ones are key.

I always have 2 batches of larvae in hatching tanks, and they are usually 2 weeks apart. When I'm moving some to my growout system, I do have a few that are still small enough that they get held back, and I put them in the tank with the clowns that are 2 weeks old.

Some nests, I also notice that after a few weeks old, before growout at 1 month, I lose some as well. I think they either are eating too much food, their stomach is too small, or other issues. I know some with crooked backs don't usually make it to growout before they die off in the tank, so it may be some kind of natural selection.. Better parental nutrition has helped me with this however.

 

[ajdiver]

I've been looking at getting into breeding clowns and have two pairs. Ones pair is black ocelerris and the other is a pair of snowflakes. This is a great thread and I can't wait for my to lay eggs. This is a very addictive hobby!

 

[MrGone]

Ok another update, here they are on day 20


We've had no further loss. Unfortunately the next batch of eggs didn't really hatch. We tried putting the tile upside down and having the airstone under it, I'm wondering if the air bubbles hitting the eggs is bad, or if it was just entirely too much air. Next time I'm pretty set on leaving the tile right side up and having the airstone placed at the bottom of it like I did before.

Today (day 22) I noticed the largest clown has his 3rd stripe showing, the rest don't... yet. "he" is also a misbar (a few of them are). I use tropic marin pro-reef and didn't bother with iodine this time around, but I might next time (not sure if I should use an iodide reef additive that is on the market, or actual iodine, I need to do more research but in the mean time I figure the tropic marin probably has adequate levels).

There is still one baby clown who swims by himself in the middle of the tank with no bars and no color, he is dark gray. We're really curious about it/what happens. I'm wondering if he'll eventually turn orange and be a naked clown or what?

The rest of them stick to the corners and just hover there. Today I added a fake anemone, but they are completely uninterested in it lol. We'll see what happens.

There are tons of baby brine in the water, but I think they are too big for the baby clowns at this point. I feed them TDO B1.

Thank you again for the feedback everyone!

 

[Mark9]

Any update?
Curious to hear about the gray one.

 

[MrGone]

Sorry for the delay, it's hard to find free time at the moment. I noticed the odd gray one developed a small head bar around day 26 and was very slightly more orange in color but unfortunately he died on day 28 We hadn't had any losses since day 11 so it was pretty disappointing in a few ways

The first clutch is going strong. I'll try to get some pictures and videos. They are now a month and 10 days!

We also just had another clutch hatch at 1pm on Saturday 7/12. They are going strong so far. We lost about 10-15 sunday afternoon but so far none have died since then. We used a wood airstone at the base of the tile and all but 10 of them hatched. We've had troubles in the past with getting a good hatch rate and it is difficult to find information on how exactly people setup the tile. We had it set at a 60* incline with a wood airstone at the base and made it produce enough bubbles to make the eggs move like how the male fans them. Last time we tried with the tile upside down and the air stone under it so the bubbles would hit the eggs and we had a incredibly low hatch rate and no survive. We've had the wood airstone in there since they hatched and I'm a little worried because I remember reading the wood airstone is bad for the rotifers/rotifer food.

Here's a video of them from yesterday, the 200 count estimate is a little low

 

[MrGone]

Ok I was able to get a video of both clutches, right now they are side by side. The older ones are one month and 12 days old and the small guys are on day 4.