OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef
- Thread starter JohnL
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Sherm71tank & mrcrab,
I instisted on nothing, I was invited to do so by Jonathan:
Hope all is well,
James
Edit: spelling
I instisted on nothing, I was invited to do so by Jonathan:
I have simply given my opinion. I worked from the statements made in this thread and on what I know of the tank. I knew the tank long before Jonathan ever saw the tank for the first time so I do know some of it's history. I do think the pumps are the "straw that broke the camel's back", but simply not the sole causative factor.
I have.
Hope all is well,
James
Edit: spelling
jnarowe
New member
James, no one is saying that Vortechs are "tank killers", but what i sbeing said is that they operate at a temp. too close to the working temperature of acrylic under stress.
And please don't make assumptions about what I have or have not done. I have been working with Eco-Tech for about 18 months trying to get these pumps to operate at a decent temperature. I have spent countless hours on this, sent pumps to them so many times I cannot remember how many, and because I didn't write that I moved them is no reason to assume that I didn't.
There have been quite a few people making assumptions about my situation based on their own experience with the pumps, and none of that really comes to terms with what I am experiencing.
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lamarine23
New member
Come on guys....can't we discuss the topic without just jumping to the conclusion that the vortechs are the sole contributers to this issue? You have an expert stating his professional opinion, which falls in line with everything I and many others have stated and that there was many factors not just the pump. Does anybody want to rebut the facts that the tank was under built? And that alone can cause serious stress on the aquarium (I'm not say it was the sole cause)? Please don't take that personal as you did not build the tank nor may have known that it was built under specs.
Jesse
Jesse
I agree, they run typically at ~140F which is at the borderline of what I think it is a good working temperature, no question about that. I also stated that any heat spikes were not going to help the situation. But, there is in an inverse relationship regarding stress and heat. The higher the load (stress), the lower the working temp. This goes for almost any construction material.
There have been other threads in other forums regarding this and the primary thesis is that the Vortechs are essentially tank killers. Since much of these discussions originate here in this thread, I think this is the place to try to correct that. Whether they become problematic in other tanks remains to be seen.
James
jnarowe
New member
No need to "correct" that on the users' end. It needs to be corrected by the manufacturer. And the stated gph will have to be lowered or another warning put in the manual.
James, come by for a vsit and put your hand on one. Have you talked to Steve about it? He's been here more than once and commented on them, and at the time, as I do now, I had them running at far less than 100% to keep them cool.
James, come by for a vsit and put your hand on one. Have you talked to Steve about it? He's been here more than once and commented on them, and at the time, as I do now, I had them running at far less than 100% to keep them cool.
sherm71tank
Premium Member
For the record then. The tank would be fine without the Vortechs? That's how I see it as well.
I've used all kinds of pumps. Most of which have been cheap Chinese knock offs and NONE of them have been reported to ruin the side of my tank or come anywhere CLOSE to the operating temps the Vortec pumps run at. :eek1: :smokin: :eek1: :eek1:
I'm not on the intellectual level that Jonathan is on but if I was I certainly would have made him happy WAY before this point if I was planning on selling my widget to a community as small as this.
A new product will have it's problems for sure but if you hang your customers out to dry I predict a slow and miserable company decline. It's a shame that Ice-Cap which has exemplary customer service should have their name tarnished with Eco-techs.
lamarine23
New member
Those are lots of what if's John. I've never come across such a unique situation such as this....In all honesty I just don't know in regards to those scenarios. James could probably answer that better than I (regarding closed loop etc...). Depending on hole placement it may jeopardize the integrity, that is something during a design phase I would discuss with the manufacture...of course with that said the damage would not have been isolated to one spot. This is all speculation of course....
I am positive that no manufacture worth anything would risk their rep to build a tank with those dims and that thickness of material.
When I was designing that 540 (96" x 36" x 36") we talked about I was cleared hot with manufacture to do 3/4 sides only but the length would have to be 1" or there would be no warranty and from a liability stand point I won't sell anything that the manufacture won't stand behind.
Jesse
I am positive that no manufacture worth anything would risk their rep to build a tank with those dims and that thickness of material.
When I was designing that 540 (96" x 36" x 36") we talked about I was cleared hot with manufacture to do 3/4 sides only but the length would have to be 1" or there would be no warranty and from a liability stand point I won't sell anything that the manufacture won't stand behind.
Jesse
sherm71tank
Premium Member
Yeah, and before you speculate you should at least see where this "spot of crazing" has occurred. It's not in the middle of the tank for the love!!!!
lamarine23
New member
Let's not be so over dramatic please I get enough of that at home with the wife and kids. :rollface:
sherm71tank
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11423323#post11423323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lamarine23
Let's not be so over dramatic please I get enough of that at home with the wife and kids. :rollface:
If your 3/4" tank suffered the same fate you would think it was over dramatic? Even though it was advertised to be safe for 3/4" thickness? Leave the tears for your kids ok? Jonathan designed his tank around these pumps from the very beginning. Get it? See if that gets them through college.
Jonathan,
I make no assumptions on what you have or have not done regarding the moving of the pumps, I went strictly with what you wrote and drew a logical conclusion.
As for your relationship with EcoTech, well, that part is beyond my scope. I was simply looking at the crazing issue and the factors behind it, hope you understand
As for "correcting" for the pumps on the users end, I was simply stating there was an inverse relationship there, not discerning whose responsibilty it is to point it out nor correct for it.
Thank you for the invitation, next time I'm in your area, I will stop by. I have not spoken with Steve about them that I can recall.
Sherm71tank,
IMO, the tank would not be crazing as it is now without the Vortechs, however the heat from the Vortechs themselves will not craze acrylic unless there is substantial load already on the acrylic.
James
I make no assumptions on what you have or have not done regarding the moving of the pumps, I went strictly with what you wrote and drew a logical conclusion.
As for your relationship with EcoTech, well, that part is beyond my scope. I was simply looking at the crazing issue and the factors behind it, hope you understand
As for "correcting" for the pumps on the users end, I was simply stating there was an inverse relationship there, not discerning whose responsibilty it is to point it out nor correct for it.
Thank you for the invitation, next time I'm in your area, I will stop by. I have not spoken with Steve about them that I can recall.
Sherm71tank,
IMO, the tank would not be crazing as it is now without the Vortechs, however the heat from the Vortechs themselves will not craze acrylic unless there is substantial load already on the acrylic.
James
sherm71tank
Premium Member
The tank did not craze at all (in the 15 years or whatever the tank had been in existence (at your estimate that is subjective) previous to the Vortech technology) before the Vortechs and is certainly reasonable would not craze without them given the tanks history.
lamarine23
New member
Say what??? Dude slow down and relax!
Jon,
Yes there is but that is why they use a certain thickness to withstand that pressure.
sherm71tank
Premium Member
Easy for me to relax. I don't have 1000+ gallons sitting on heavily crazed acrylic. No problem on my end.
There are significant differences Jonathan, you know that
Would you say that if your tank was made from 1/4" acrylic, that it would be even more susceptable to such stresses? same reasoning applies, it's simply more apt to craze under the same load. Call it load relative to material thickness.
OTOH, you can put a torch to acrylic and it will not craze. A normal load (my definition) is not enough to get acrylic to craze with the simple addition of heat.
James
Would you say that if your tank was made from 1/4" acrylic, that it would be even more susceptable to such stresses? same reasoning applies, it's simply more apt to craze under the same load. Call it load relative to material thickness.
I'd agree with that. I probably should have used a term such as "at the upper reaches of it's potential"
OTOH, you can put a torch to acrylic and it will not craze. A normal load (my definition) is not enough to get acrylic to craze with the simple addition of heat.
James
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