OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef
- Thread starter JohnL
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lamarine23
New member
I run the pumps at 100% and no over heating so what are you talking about?
lamarine23
New member
On a side note though I have noticed the pumps running cooler w/ the wireless wave drivers.
lamarine23
New member
I know that.... but I also ran them before without the WWD continuos no heat issues there.
chris wright
In Memoriam
So after all the debate, we still have no conclusion as to why the tank has crazed?
Thanks James for the information that you have provided. I honestly thought that considering the tank has been running for a fair time now that the heat was the problem. Could the age of the acrylic be the problem. I ask as I have no experience with it, but being a builder, I do see a lot of products that were advertised years ago to be great, but time has shown different.
This is a topic, especially conserning the vortechs that have quite a few people worried. As you have pointed out alot of people are reading this thread and are getting worried. I definately will not be buying vortechs based on the problems Jonathon has had, based on the fact of the customer service that i'm seeing is not what I would think to be satisfactory, not only in this case either.
Not being able to run is 100% is bullsh$t. If the heat issue is not fixed this product should be recalled, regardless if it is not the problem or not.
Thanks James for the information that you have provided. I honestly thought that considering the tank has been running for a fair time now that the heat was the problem. Could the age of the acrylic be the problem. I ask as I have no experience with it, but being a builder, I do see a lot of products that were advertised years ago to be great, but time has shown different.
This is a topic, especially conserning the vortechs that have quite a few people worried. As you have pointed out alot of people are reading this thread and are getting worried. I definately will not be buying vortechs based on the problems Jonathon has had, based on the fact of the customer service that i'm seeing is not what I would think to be satisfactory, not only in this case either.
Not being able to run is 100% is bullsh$t. If the heat issue is not fixed this product should be recalled, regardless if it is not the problem or not.
melev
Well-known member
If there were 5 cases or more, I could better understand people's fears. And even that would be just a handful vs. all the pumps out there. So far, it appears to be the only case in two years' time.
Out of all the posts I've read both on RC and our own club's message board, I've not seen people being treated poorly by EcoTech/IceCap's customer service. Post after post, customer service either replied quickly or the person posted that their issue was resolved. Which is what we would expect.
How they deal with <u>this</u> customer - that's what really is being discussed in this thread. It seems several people want EcoTech to buy him a new tank. When Kent's Sea Salt killed off livestock across the nation with the bad batch of salt, they offered replacement salt or some other equipment at the same value. They did not replace lost livestock, nor the money it would cost to replace the livestock.
In the end, I do hope everyone involved in this situation is content. However, the court of public opinion really has no bearing on this situation because as was pointed out, we don't know all the facts and we risk being wrong by assuming we do.
ReefArtist
In Memoriam
That said Marc, when it's not you or your tank it's very easy to "not feel the pain". I just can't believe the pumps put out so much heat, that alone is a reason not to purchase. So - are we saying acrylic just doesn't last that long? IMO - even better reason to go glass!
I also hope in the end everyone will be happy but I really don't think a company should drag their feet like this - either fix it now or just say "not our problem" and let their poor customer service put a end to the product.
I also hope in the end everyone will be happy but I really don't think a company should drag their feet like this - either fix it now or just say "not our problem" and let their poor customer service put a end to the product.
triggerfish1976
New member
Since I started running my Vortechs I noticed that the heat sink can get hot but when I remove the dry end and feel the acrylic it is not anywhere near as hot as the heatsink. Are the 140F temps measured from the heat sink or are they actually the temps. being applied to the acrylic because it doesn't feel that hot to me.
triggerfish1976
New member
Exactly. The crazing is occuring higher up on the tank which is condusive to stress caused by an under built tank.
As I have said on another thread related to this same topic, it is not uncommon for Metal Halides to cause crazing in the top portion of underbuilt acrylic tanks but do you see threads bashing the metal halide companies wanting them to replace their tanks or trying to make them redesign their product to make them run cooler? I don't think so.
At some point hobbyists realized that metal halides ran hot so they installed a fan to insure the tank was kept cool in order to ensure that the lighting would not do long term damage to the tank and to also keep the water temp.'s down. If anyone is worried that their Vortech is going to do the same then just run a fan on it.
BTW - I have yet to notice any heat issues on mine and they are basically in enclosed boxes.
No Jonathan, it's not a whole lot different. It is a "max operating temp", not a nominal operating temp. I've never varied from that, my max range is and always has been 130-140F. If it (the acrylic) reaches that temp, shut the heat source down, whether it be from MH or a pump. No one can say what the safe "max operating temp" is in every situation nor every tank, it's not realistic, I just use 140F as a recommended shut-off point based on my experience, if you feel it's lower based on your experience then by all means use the lower number for a shut-off point.
It is my opinion that your tank probably has a lower threshold at which it will start having such issues. As an example, if you allow for a standard size tank such as a 72 x 30 x 30" using 3/4", the stresses on that material will be less than that of your 96 x 60 x 35" tank using the same 3/4" mterial. In saying this I'm not saying that this was the sole cause of the crazing, I think this point is quite obvious, only that it is a contributing factor, again IMO.
It is also possible that the pump may have heated up beyond the 140F number, which given the stresses on your tank, will tend to cause more problems than on a tank with less stress on it. In my conversation with you and in reading this thread as well as my conversation with "others", it is quite possible for the pumps to go beyond the 140F number. Please understand the 140F number is not an absolute, just a recommendation. You have stated that you thought the pump was malfunctioning, I believe you as I have no reason not to, it may have malfuntioned. But again, this is beyond my scope, I have no expertise with regard to that.
If you accept the premise that your tank (as of the moment) is the only known tank exhibiting these problems, then there ought to be a reason. I look at your tank size and the material it's made from and the stresses involved and a flag is raised that it probably is a contributing factor. The other primary factor is that the pump you used there heated up the acrylic past your tank's threshold at which point crazing can occur. It is simply my opinion that in all likelyhood, it is a combination of the two. Your tanks vertical panels have more stress put on them than I would consider to be of the "normal" range as your tank is larger than what I would recommend bulding from 3/4" material, the heat from the pump pushed the material over the edge so to speak, and the material released some of the stress in the form of crazing.
Aside from the above, I can't add anything further as anything else would be pure speculation and/or beyond my scope.
Again, JMO,
James
jnarowe
New member
Thanks for the post James. Again your stated max. operating temp. is IMO, way to close to the shut-down spec. of the Vortech, and I believe this is why we are seeing this crazing in my tank. This was an easy mistake for Eco-Tech to make, since they were probably going by static heat specs. not stressed.
There is no doubt in my mind that this particular pump went way out of temp. range, and the reason why I state this is that I had two other pumps operating under identical ambient conditions and placed at the same level on the same panel, and they did not craze at all.
Please keep in mind that they were all set for approximately 60% of flow at the time. Currently I have two pumps running at 100% with dedicated fans, and a heat sink temp. of 100 - 109F. I am very happy with them. They are running silent, no stalls, etc. but they are also not on WWDs.
I have three running at about 80% and about the mid-point of the pulse mode with temps at 120F - 125F. In the past, I have measured heat sink temps. in excess of 140F multiple times, and even a few occassions where I got readings above 150F. Average ambient temp. is currently 73F.
There was a slight mis-statement above by trigger I want to clarify. The higher up in the tank, the less likely it is for crazing to occur because there is less stress (pressure) placed on the pane. I currently have moved them all to the top third of the tank, but unfortunately that does not give me enough flow around the rocks.
There is no doubt in my mind that this particular pump went way out of temp. range, and the reason why I state this is that I had two other pumps operating under identical ambient conditions and placed at the same level on the same panel, and they did not craze at all.
Please keep in mind that they were all set for approximately 60% of flow at the time. Currently I have two pumps running at 100% with dedicated fans, and a heat sink temp. of 100 - 109F. I am very happy with them. They are running silent, no stalls, etc. but they are also not on WWDs.
I have three running at about 80% and about the mid-point of the pulse mode with temps at 120F - 125F. In the past, I have measured heat sink temps. in excess of 140F multiple times, and even a few occassions where I got readings above 150F. Average ambient temp. is currently 73F.
There was a slight mis-statement above by trigger I want to clarify. The higher up in the tank, the less likely it is for crazing to occur because there is less stress (pressure) placed on the pane. I currently have moved them all to the top third of the tank, but unfortunately that does not give me enough flow around the rocks.
ReefArtist
In Memoriam
Not sure if that was a mis-statement but I think it's more of what caused the crazing. The only acrylic tanks that I've seen with crazing has been at the top and the cause was heat from MH.
jnarowe
New member
That's because of where the heat source is, but with the pumps, the heat goes with them. In the upper portion of the acrylic, there is far less pressure/stress than in the lower portion. That's the whole point James and others is trying to get across. The tank has crazed because there was abnormally high heat combined with high stress.
sherm71tank
Premium Member
The spot of bad crazing in question is in the bottom 1/3 of the tank.
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