ok guys, people with high trates keeping sps succesfully? im a skeptic myself...

[Pallobi]

to tell you the truth i don't even test for nitrates, I did for a few years when i began this hobby but in the last four years i have not and have great colors on my sps, I believe if you know how to run a reef in your home you do not need to test for nitrate all the time. Now i do test alk, cal and mag constantly even with my dosing pumps, but my clams and corals will usually let me know when one of those levels are off. the proof is in the pudding and if you need pics to prove it I can back that up also.

i dont usually test for nitrates at this point ever myself... i jus know they are at 0 cuz i do test about once a month or two randomly, and always with the same results... i also feel alk, followed by calcium and mag are by far more important... well including and making sure of a low phos reading as well...

by no means do i not believe you, but it would only help the discussion if you wouldnt mind a pic or two besides, this is RC and you know we are all pic crazy regardless of the discussion lol

 

[fishieness]

This is kinda what I've figured out. I know some is true, but haven't proven anything as far as nitrates.
I know that coral reefs are extremely efficient in reducing nutrient levels. Waters up-current of a coral reef often have a decent amount of nutrients, while the exiting water is usually pretty stripped of nutrients.
As far as nitrates, as I understand it, ammonia and nitrite are what's really very harmful to corals, while nitrates don't directly affect them too much. However, high nitrates often signifies higher levels of nitrate and ammonia, though they still test zero because they are used up almost immediately, though they can still harm corals a bit because they are still present, even for a second. Having high levels of nitrate can be okay as long as you have ultra low levels of ammonia and nitrite. I had a prop tank at work that would color up pretty much any corals, but nitrates were off the scale. How does this work? Nitrates cause algae growth, such as zooxanthellae, which brown corals out significantly. However, that time, we were blasting these corals with light. They were under a 400 watt halide and were pretty shallow in the tank, but corals colored up pretty darn well. High amounts of light cause bleaching, aka, the expulsion of zooxanthellae. But high nitrates cause an increase in growth, as well as an increase in zooxanthellae production, leading to brown corals. MAYBE the mixture of high light and high nitrate with very low levels of ammonia and nitrite resulted in "high nutrients" and bright colors.
Just a hypothesis from what I've witnessed. None of my personal tanks have been high nutrient, so I don't have too many samples in this observation. Haha. But maybe this was why it worked in this one situation?
Just a thought.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Everyone does things different and what works for someone else might not work for you! However I'm going to say I think the lower nitrates is probably better because you have some room for error and a healthy overall system.

I know your system is designed to keep everything squeaky clean which is a good thing, but I've seen plenty of great sps tanks with deep dirty sandbeds with the same success.

 

[Pallobi]

Great info, insight and opinions guys... a great discussion indeed...

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

I've heard that a little nitrate around 5ppm can be a good thing for better coloration.

 

[Pallobi]

I've heard that a little nitrate around 5ppm can be a good thing for better coloration.

I have also heard that a small amount of nitrates is a good thing as well, from many a sources...

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

I have also heard that a small amount of nitrates is a good thing as well, from many a sources...

Nice are you thinking about bumpin' those trates up a few to see? How many fish do you have in your dt?

 

[kingfisherflesh]

Cool thread.

My tank is running currently at 10-20ppm of nitrate (weekly h2o changes of 20g - but also overstocked)

And I am growing several SPS...they havent been my focus in this tank yet, as I am still piecing everything together (Stocking, filtration, then corals...and SPS last.)

But...my pink lemonade is growing well, and so was my garf. Colors are getting better...and we will see where they end up.

Once I get nitrates to a stable point and I am stocking with my other SPS's I will come back and let you know colors and how everything is going.

 

[Nanook]

Less than 20 in my experience is best. I think 3-5ppm nitrate is ideal.

 

[Pallobi]

Nice are you thinking about bumpin' those trates up a few to see? How many fish do you have in your dt?

no experimenting here lol... in my 140 gallons of total water volume, i have the following...

purple tang
6 line wrasse
banghaii cardinal pair
coral beauty angel

i will be adding a mystery wrasse to my secondary tank, which i call my fuge, once i get some screen covers made...

low bio load is one of the things i go for... i feel it helps along with my other system characteristics, to help me acheive ULN without any sort of bacterial addition or carbon source...

even with trates at 0, and phosphates well less than .03 ppm, closer to 0.00, i still get very good color imo... or at least that is what i am told by all the peeps who come to my house

if it aint broke, dont fix it... lol... if thats not too redundant

 

[Pallobi]

i jus wana be clear about something... at no time did i mean to come off as you must have ULN to acheive a succesful sps tank... myself, I am only in my 13th month of keeping sps and still have far more to learn than i have learned to this point... clearly i was wrong in assuming you must have low trates to have success, and a few here on this thread have chimed in to help give me a better understanding... the thought of this thread came from some ideas from a thread on another site... however on that other thread, i had people saying that trates' higher than 20 where fine... again, like 80 up to 180... and this i dont feel is safe, sane, or even believable... so i brought the discussion here... where there is much more traffic, and many many more experienced sps keepers who could contribute to the discussion and idea from both sides of the spectrum... again, i have learned alot, and as usual, i owe most of that to my fellow RC'rs...

 

[Pallobi]

I've seen plenty of great sps tanks with deep dirty sandbeds with the same success.

i think it should be stated along with this statement above, as many already know, that the properly setup dsb's, are used in systems to reduce nitrates and phosphates to 0, or pretty close, and are really very effective at doing so i myself had one for the first 6 months of my setups life, and it did an amazing job at it... so these dirty dsb's, are in fact contributing to the overall lwater quality and loow nutrients of any given system which contains one, and the likely hood of the trates' being high in such a system, are very low... again, if the dsb is done properly...

jmo... as i hope this makes sense... its late and i may sound like i am babbling lol

 

[Alex T.]

Well... I think we have to use our common sense when we hear claims like this. Without accurate pictures it's just going to be a lot of banter. If it were truly possible to grow colorful SPS in the conditions that the OP suggests, then every person that currently runs a heavily stocked FOWLR or recently made the move to reefkeeping (especially SPS) would be having astounding results. However, this is quite the contrary.

Newbies to the SPS game usually have large learning curves as they make the transition and suffer the subsequent losses to their colorful sticks as they learn the ropes. The OP would rather we discount 30+ years of learning and forward progress for the sake of us believing in a mystical and ill advised approach. We would all love to have more fish and feed them all day long but the ensuing septic conditions would be an "I told you so". Everyone would have abandoned carbon dosing, Zeovit, light stocking of fishes, huge protein skimmers, etc. if there were any shred of evidence that high nitrates would garner superior results. We would replace our small wrasses and Anthias with a Lionfish and our Royal Grammas for groupers if low nitrate was our limiting factor.

To speak to the truth in the argument, I recently had a friend who wanted to make the switch from keeping fish to reefkeeping. I won't go into specifics but his stocking was so grossly in excess with respect to number and size of fishes that I was astounded they could live in the filth. His tank had a noticeable smell from the next room over. His nitrates hovered around 50 with very large water changes and a large Beckett skimmer. A piece of "un-killable" hydnophora broke off my mother colony and he begged me to try it in his tank. He had proper t5 lighting, and he gave it a shot. It was brown in 3 days, no polyp extension after 1 day and dead on the fifth day. Same story with a pink birdsnest a month later.

We should all be willing to listen to new breakthroughs in this hobby as it is still in a relatively young stage. But, this is not new information. We know that high nutrient systems have problems keeping SPS. Let me re-phrase this. Although wild reefs are nutrient rich and DOC poor, the infusion of these same nutrient quantities in our systems is ill advised with the rash of algae outbreaks and DOC accumulation that will follow. "Dilution as the solution to pollution" did not become popular because high nitrates were growing SPS like crazy.

Let's get real and see through all the "I have a friend" stories. What's next? Maybe someone can show us pictures of a friend's tank that is growing acropora in a freshwater cichlid system with nothing but incandescent lightbulbs and constant 90 degree temperatures.

 

[Pallobi]

The OP would rather we discount 30+ years of learning and forward progress for the sake of us believing in a mystical and ill advised approach.

plz excuse me, but you are very much mistaken... this comment is waaaaaayyyy off base... I am the one who runs a ULNS, as many sps keepers do, and insist for the most part that anything over even a few nitrates ppm, is too much... plz do not misread my OP, and start convusing others about my views... AT NO TIME DID I EVER MENTION ANY OF THIS DISCOUNTING OF INFO AND GATHERED EXPERIENCE you are saying i would "rather have us all do", according to your words, not mine...

if you read through all my posts, you would have seen i am one of those that would have a heart attack if my nitrates even registered at all... let alone got up to 20 ppm... i am one who does not agree with high nitrates in a sps tank, or any at all for that matter... and was simply asking for those who claim they do, to prove it, with pics and tests, for the simple reason of valid discussion and debate...

 

[Pallobi]

btw, thank you to those who had the troubling posts removed that were here this morning... much appreciated

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

i think it should be stated along with this statement above, as many already know, that the properly setup dsb's, are used in systems to reduce nitrates and phosphates to 0, or pretty close, and are really very effective at doing so i myself had one for the first 6 months of my setups life, and it did an amazing job at it... so these dirty dsb's, are in fact contributing to the overall lwater quality and loow nutrients of any given system which contains one, and the likely hood of the trates' being high in such a system, are very low... again, if the dsb is done properly...

jmo... as i hope this makes sense... its late and i may sound like i am babbling lol

I agree, it is possible to implement a dsb for the purpose of nitrate reduction, but it can get messy pretty quickly. There are many downsides which correlate running these type systems and can be disastrous. If the dsb is disturbed it can cause high toxic elevated levels of hydrogen sulfide not to mention the increase of phos/nitrates released. This is why I think it is best to run a sps tank for long term success and removing potential problems from happening by having a SSB or BB. I tried a dsb and seeing how dirty they get makes me wonder what would happen if a powerhead accidentally fell!! :eek2: This is why I like your design and others with ssb because it seems like it's a lot easier to control nutrients as opposed to relying on a sandbed to break down all those nutrients. :beer: