On going Phosphate issues.. Need some help!

Ashr

New member
Hey all

My Tank: Red Sea Max 250 (66g)

So I have been battling high phos for sometime now. I just used my Hannah Checker and I am up around 0.29. I cannot for the life of me get this down to around .02 - .05 to where I want it. I use RowaPhos and chemi-pure elite.
I do a water change every 2-3 weeks of at least 5-8g. I suppose the best thing is to do some big water changes and add more Rowa but wanted to ask some of you in here. My tank is 85% SPS and the rest is LPS.

Can anyone give me some pointers on this.. I've been reefing for around 5 years and this is just getting to me. My corals look good, the colors are great but I am starting to get brown algae on some of my coral tips where flow isnt getting too.

Any help would be great..

Thanks

My levels:
Calc 300 (My doser stopped working, i usually keep it around 450 so I am getting this back up)
Alk 10-11
Phos .29
SG 1.029
Mg 1450
 
Don't add too much RowaPhos too quickly or you might shock your system. Slowly bring up the level. I prefer 10% WaterChange weekly but know people that are on your schedule that don't have phosphate issues.

Also the phosphates are coming from somewhere as I am sure you know. Perhaps you are feeding too much without enough export? How old is the system? Rocks leaching? What is the TDS coming out of your RO/DI unit? Are you using RO/DI?
 
Don't add too much RowaPhos too quickly or you might shock your system. Slowly bring up the level. I prefer 10% WaterChange weekly but know people that are on your schedule that don't have phosphate issues.

Also the phosphates are coming from somewhere as I am sure you know. Perhaps you are feeding too much without enough export? How old is the system? Rocks leaching? What is the TDS coming out of your RO/DI unit? Are you using RO/DI?

TDS is reading 0.00 out, about .77 in.

System is about 4 years old. It could be my rocks.. I would have no idea how to tell to be honest in that.

I have also been dosing Amino Acids the last month but I have been fighting Phos for some time..
 
My understanding is that the rocks would have absorbed phosphate over time and then begun leaching. If just 4 years old and you have had the issue for awhile, even using RowaPhos I am not sure that could be it.

How many fish and what do you feed them?
 
If you suspect the rock, pull the largest rock that is easy to get out, stick it in a container with fresh 0 phos saltwater. If the phos goes really high, it looks like it's your rock. That was one of the reasons that I took down my 180 SPS tank. I had a "bad" rock that I acquired with another tank purchase. It was large enough, and leached enough phosphates to screw my water up. And by the time that I figured it out, my other rock probably absorbed enough phosphates to be an issue. So I took all of the corals out, pulled the rock and put it in a few 55 gallon drums with a lot of power heads and skimmers, and used Lanthanum Chloride from the pool store. About two weeks later, and a few water changes I have no phosphate issues. Then I decided to upgrade to a 220 and bought all new stuff. So phosphates are costing me a lot of money! I think you can use Lanthanum Chloride in your system with the same results, you just have to use filter socks to catch it.
 
Hey all

My Tank: Red Sea Max 250 (66g)

So I have been battling high phos for sometime now. I just used my Hannah Checker and I am up around 0.29. I cannot for the life of me get this down to around .02 - .05 to where I want it. I use RowaPhos and chemi-pure elite.
I do a water change every 2-3 weeks of at least 5-8g. I suppose the best thing is to do some big water changes and add more Rowa but wanted to ask some of you in here. My tank is 85% SPS and the rest is LPS.

Can anyone give me some pointers on this.. I've been reefing for around 5 years and this is just getting to me. My corals look good, the colors are great but I am starting to get brown algae on some of my coral tips where flow isnt getting too.

Any help would be great..

Thanks

My levels:
Calc 300 (My doser stopped working, i usually keep it around 450 so I am getting this back up)
Alk 10-11
Phos .29
SG 1.029
Mg 1450

It took me around 6-8 months to get PO4 down in my tank. I have a bare bottomed tank. So it was definitely the rocks leaching it. At one point I had 1litre of GFO in my tank (47G). I do NOT recommend such a level of GFO, it can cause your SPS to RTN. I slowly built up the level over MANY weeks. The side effect was that my corals lost colour. Anyway, even with fresh GFO, my PO4 would rise above 0.15 very quickly.

How are your SPS coral colours? If colours are OK, just let it come down slowly.

My PO4 is now holding steady at 0.02ppm (Elos Merck kit) WITHOUT the use of GFO. Been over a month since I took GFO reactor offline.
 
Sounds like it will cost u a small fortune in Gfo to get that down.
I would be getting some biopellets online, then I would try some lanthanum chloride. Should be able to get it down with that combo.
I use both to get mine to stay low
 
In my experience carbon dosing drops nitrates substantially, but once they're at zero or close to it your phosphates won't drop any further. So it'll work in the near term, but only if you have a good amount of nitrates in your system.

Best thing to do is go the lanthanum chloride or GFO/Phosguard route combined with carbon dosing.

This is all from my personal phosphate battles. I finally just pulled 60 percent of my rock and acid washed it. :)
 
In my experience carbon dosing drops nitrates substantially, but once they're at zero or close to it your phosphates won't drop any further. So it'll work in the near term, but only if you have a good amount of nitrates in your system.

Best thing to do is go the lanthanum chloride or GFO/Phosguard route combined with carbon dosing.

This is all from my personal phosphate battles. I finally just pulled 60 percent of my rock and acid washed it. :)


I agree. Nitrates are consumed at a faster rate then the phosphate so GFO should also be run and/or increase nitrates with heavier feeding.

I had terrible problems and carbon dosing finally did it, like a miracle. You have to do it right though. Not hard or complicated, just done correctly.
 
It took me around 6-8 months to get PO4 down in my tank. I have a bare bottomed tank. So it was definitely the rocks leaching it. At one point I had 1litre of GFO in my tank (47G). I do NOT recommend such a level of GFO, it can cause your SPS to RTN. I slowly built up the level over MANY weeks. The side effect was that my corals lost colour. Anyway, even with fresh GFO, my PO4 would rise above 0.15 very quickly.

How are your SPS coral colours? If colours are OK, just let it come down slowly.

My PO4 is now holding steady at 0.02ppm (Elos Merck kit) WITHOUT the use of GFO. Been over a month since I took GFO reactor offline.

Sahin, just out of curiosity, what do you think ultimately turned the corner with your PO4? If I'm following you correctly, the rocks just eventually expelled all the PO4 they had stored up and the GFO made sure you weren't adding more to the tank during this process, and removed what the rock was producing in the meantime?
I ask because I am using biopellets (ecobak pellets) and have brought my NO3 to undetectable, but PO4 hovers between 0.05 and 0.1 (Hanna phosphate checker, and Hanna Phosphorus checker). My tank has been running for eight months, so is still young. If I run enough GFO I can knock the PO4 levels down to 0.00 to 0.03 but would love it if I could keep them down only using the Ecobak pellets. I dose Prodibio Biodigest, and Microlift Special Blend on alternate weeks as well. I change my RODI filters regularly, rinse food in RODI, etc so I can't think of anything other than the rock that is producing PO4.
Also, I enjoy following your tank thread. Tank looks great!
Thanks,

Rocky
 
Sahin, just out of curiosity, what do you think ultimately turned the corner with your PO4? If I'm following you correctly, the rocks just eventually expelled all the PO4 they had stored up and the GFO made sure you weren't adding more to the tank during this process, and removed what the rock was producing in the meantime?
I ask because I am using biopellets (ecobak pellets) and have brought my NO3 to undetectable, but PO4 hovers between 0.05 and 0.1 (Hanna phosphate checker, and Hanna Phosphorus checker). My tank has been running for eight months, so is still young. If I run enough GFO I can knock the PO4 levels down to 0.00 to 0.03 but would love it if I could keep them down only using the Ecobak pellets. I dose Prodibio Biodigest, and Microlift Special Blend on alternate weeks as well. I change my RODI filters regularly, rinse food in RODI, etc so I can't think of anything other than the rock that is producing PO4.
Also, I enjoy following your tank thread. Tank looks great!
Thanks,

Rocky

Hey Rocky.

Yes, you are correct, ultimately, the rocks leached out all the PO4. I did take a couple of pieces out the sump...but they were no more than about 4 lbs of rock. Even after I took out the pieces from the sump, I still had to use LOADS of GFO to get the PO4 low. Just checked my notes, and I also used Lanthanum Chloride a couple of times with a 10micron filter bag.

Here is VERY clever way to reduce PO4 cheap (using LC, rather than GFO):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21915834&postcount=330

Once the rocks stop leaching, the PO4 can be managed without GFO; the Biopellets when using up nitrate will also use some of the GFO.

I can now feed a TON of food in my tank and my PO4 will only move slightly and then drop to around 0.02ppm within a day or two.

For example, today I fed some flakes in the morning before leaving for work. When I got home I fed 2 frozen cubes. Some days I can feed 3 frozen cubes and then a generous amount of flakes as well as dose a pinch of Reefroids too.

When I feed LOADS like 2-3 days in a row, I get a dusting buildup on my glass...otherwise my tank can go 6-8 days before I need to wipe the glass (thats when if I fed 1 cube and some flakes) per day.

Anyway, how are your coral colours? I dont think a PO4 level of 0.05-0.1ppm for a young tank is too bad. PLUS, since that big PO4 thread, I've been reading loads of build threads, and looking out for PO4 numbers and SPS colours, and I have come across tanks with PO4 as high as 0.3ppm with EXCELLENT colour.

Example: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142
Ed (Big E) has AMAZING colours on his acros, has around 0.3ppm PO4.

Lately, I have began to doubt the whole PO4 level thing...

The best advice I can suggest is; have enough rocks for filtration, have good lights, keep parameters stable and let the tank and corals mature. If you havent read Ed's tank before, I would seriously spend time reading the whole thread.

So you can see how I have first discussed how you can get PO4 really low, but ended with basically pointing out that I dont think PO4 is as bad as we think.

Here is a brilliant LED tank where GFO isnt used at all, and the tank owner doesnt even test for PO4 (see post number 149)http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256865&page=6. But look at all the photos in that page. ;)

See post 18 on this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2371025 Algae is present on the rocks, but great colour on SPS. ;)

I'll leave it at that. :)
 
Hi Sahin,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and link those threads. Currently, my colors are decent, not great, but certainly not brown "“ but seem to be slowly improving. I had a few issues end of last year that caused the tank to take a step back (left town for a week over Christmas and had the skimmer overflow "“ including a weeks worth of skimmate "“ into the tank). This spiked my nutrient levels, which caused the corals to stop growing, and use less Alk, which caused my Alk to suddenly spike, etc. So, beginning first of the year, I started doing a 10 gallon water change on my 150 gallon tank, twice each week "“ every Saturday and every Wednesday. Also added a self cleaning head on my skimmer, and skimmate locker to prevent overflows into the tank from happening again. Between keeping my levels stable "“ my Alk hasn't fluctuated higher than 7.5 or lower than 7.0 in almost three months, and the water changes, I have seen a big increase in growth, and color seems to be coming around.

Honestly, nutrient levels and their removal is probably the single most confusing subject in reef keeping for me right now. I know that you have been around the hobby for a long time, so you have seen the fads come and go over the years, like I have. Because I have moved a lot over the past ten years, I have never had a tank up and running longer than about 18 months, the downside being I have never gotten a tank to a "œmature" level, but on the positive side, I have tried lots of things "“ some successful, some disastrous.  Anyway, I copied the "œBomber" technique when starboard tanks where the big thing, about ten years ago, and set up a bare bottom tank with ridiculous flow, and a hugely oversized beckett skimmer, along with "œcooked" rocks. Obviously this worked for lots of people at the time, but no matter how big my skimmer got, and how much flow I added, I never got things to work as they should. Also did a Zeovit tank, and looking back I think I stacked the deck against myself from day one by adding some really nasty live rock from a local store I was trying to remain loyal to. I failed at the Zeo tank, but really liked the theory behind it, at least my overly simplified understanding of it: reduce nutrients down to zero, and then add them back in a controlled way. Trying to build on what I have learned, I set out to build my newest tank (and the first tank I have put together in a house I own, and can hopefully remain up and running for the long haul) using what I have learned. Instead of using Zeovit, I have tried out biopellets to reduce nutrients, and have been dosing Zeo Coral Vitalizer and Pohl's Xtra to try to keep the corals from starving.

Sorry for the long post, and coming back to my original thought: nutrients and their targeted level (or not shooting for any level at all) is seriously confusing. It's amazing how all over the board you see nutrient levels, and successful reefs. But, in my opinion, it seems to me that understanding how to properly "œread" your tank, keeping Alk, Ca, Mg, and Salinity as rock steady as possible, is probably much more important that what your PO4 and NO3 levels are. After reading the Big E thread you linked, plus countless others, I think these guys could run a successful tank using a high powered flashlight, and powerheads from the 90's (obviously an exaggeration) because they really understand how to make the tank work regardless of nutrients, based on what the tank is telling them. I also think that most of these long time, successful reefers could probably make an amazing tank with .3 PO4, or .03 PO4, because they get the "œbig picture" and know how to work with what they have.

Personally, I think this statement that you made hits the nail on the head: "œThe best advice I can suggest is; have enough rocks for filtration, have good lights, keep parameters stable and let the tank and corals mature." I also have found another statement you made in another thread a while back very helpful regarding "œhigh import, high export", and have really taken that to heart. I originally just wanted to get your thoughts on clearing PO4 out of rocks, but some of the other links you provided really got me thinking.  I'm hopeful that I can starve the remaining PO4 out of my live rock using GFO, and then follow in your footsteps, and remove it all together. In the meantime, keep up on water changes, make sure parameters are steady, and be patient.
Again, sorry for the long post, I don't usually offer much in the way of opinion, but I think the links you provided really ask some interesting questions that are helpful to think about and discuss. Thanks again.

Rocky
 
How clean is your sump? do you run a filter sock? my phos problems were bc all the detritus laying on the bottom of my sump. so i run a filter sock and change out every few days
 
Ashr, just wondering what your no3 is.
I don't seem to see a level posted for no3... Unless I missed it..
 
ashr, a few tips:

Get rid of detritiis. Check the back chambers too.

Stock skimmer? Clean the neck. Skimming wet removes more disolved organics with that skimmer. You will have to replace some salt water on a regular basis to keep salinity stable but it's worth it. It's like a continuous mini water change.

Run the filter pad from time to time - like when you stir up detritus into the water column. If you have large amounts on the rock, do several sessions of blowing off the rocks & export the junk via the filter pad.

Running carbon may help you indirectly by stripping some organics today which will produce phosphates in the near future.

Big one: I suspect your GFO is getting exhausted well before you change it out. Not uncommon in mature tanks. You can test tank water & GFO effluent both right after changing media, and at intervals after that. At first effluent levels are near 0. When there is little to no difference between effluent & tank water it's time for a change. If you're concerned about cost buy it in larger quantities from BRS, Aquamaxx etc. You don't need chemipure elite as it's an expensive blend of GFO & Carbon.

Are you running a reactor? If not that's a great solution. Make sure water is flowing through all of the media making contact with all of it. The right sized pump is critical & keep it level.

If you have sensitive corals it is best to implement some of these things gradually over time so that the animals can adapt withou too much trauma.
 
I would take a 5g bucket with new saltwater with no PO4 and put 1 rock in from your tank and see if the rock is leaching. I had a problem with my tank I couldn't get the PO4 and NO3 down without Vinegar dosing and even then it would spike. I replaced all rock and took out all sand went from a DSB to a Shallow Sand bed. The other thing you can try is Bulkreefsupply High Capacity GFO and replace it every week. GFO absorbs PO4 very fast and with high PO4 it will obsorb all it can quick. Its also best to run a reactor not sure if you are or not, but if you run a reactor the water is forced through the GFO. If you lay a bag in the sump most of the water will flow around it. I would also remove skimmer, powerheads etc... and give them a vinegar bath to clean them so you know the are running efficently.
 
i would also get that salt down b4 your corals get too many problems added up together. youll have an all lps tank pretty quick...
 
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