one problem after another

[kristytang]

we got a 37 gal a few months back and set it up for salt water. we have two lights, one 10,000k and one 50/50. beyond that, i dont know a whole lot about our specs. being a noob, and honestly just not knowing any better, we set it up and got some fish almost instantly. all was well for a few weeks, we had an emerald crab, a domino damsel, an engineer goby, a buterfly goby and a green chromis. we took the domino back to the LFS (which i no longer support but i will get to that). a few days later i woke up to a dead emerald. not putting two and two together, i took him out, flushed him, and went on with my day. when i came home from work that night the chromis was dying. i took him out into a freshly made salt bucket (rookie mistake #1) and he later died. tested the levels and the nitrite was off the charts-literally. suprisingly the engineer goby lived and we still have him, even now. later on, after the levels started to level out and the nitrite went to a more believable standard we got some premium live rock, at about $10 a lb we didnt get much. we also got two green chromis. that kept us entertained for a while, finding all the little critters on it. after a while we took the chromis back since they werent very 'reef' like. then i managed to find some ultra premium live rock with corals on it for $2 a lb because a guy was taking down his tank. we got about 60lbs of it, give or take along with a green tip anemone that split so now we have two. later that same day we got an orange shoulder tang (too big for our tank-rookie mistake #2) that we still have. a few days later we went out and got a clown (that refused to use the anemone, we took him back and got a gold stripe maroon instead), a barred goby, a mandarine goby, and a longnose butterfly. we also got a banded shrimp, two peppermint shrimp, a handfull of hermits, a hairy arrow crab, and a porcelin crab. all was going well for a while. a few days later i noticed that whoo and behold, the long nose had ich. thats about the time i sought out internet help and joined a forum. we set up a hospital, put all the fish in, and tried to decide what to do. after all the hasle of catching the fish we put all but the butterfly back since the tang was freaking out. i found ich-attack and had high hopes of that working. we put all the fish back and just treated our show tank (rookie mistake #3). it actually did work, i havent seen it in a few days. three days later i noticed out butterfly had cloudy/pop eye. this literally happened in one night. i took him out (not hard to catch actually) and put him in the hospital. put in some melafix. then i noticed my tang had fin rot. gee. put him in the hospital too since melafix sound treat that as well. this morning we woke up to a dead longnose :eek2: . i did about a 25% water change on the hospital, replaced the water with the show tank water since i know its stable right now. im worried sick the tang will die. so after all this, can anyone help?

 

[inachu]

Sounds like the tank did not have time to establish itself.

I ran my salt water tank for 3 weeks with just sand and nothing else then after 3rd week I bought a damsel.

So yeah I think your tank is not ready.
What equipment do you have with your tank?

 

[kristytang]

i know it didnt cycle, thats what i was getting at haha. by this point though (four months after the fact) im not sure there is much i can do.
as far as equiptment, im really not sure i can be of much help. we have two biowheel filters. a heater. the lights i mentioned. some power heads. and thats about it. most of it came with the tank and stand so im not sure what kind they are. all i know is the last owner of the tank held sea horses in it. we kept it high brackish for a while, then jumped to salt and threw some stuff in.
any thoughts on how to save my tang?
thanks for the reply.

 

[inachu]

To help with the health I would say you need to buy a protein skimmer and if you have a smaller tank then put the sick fish and there and get some medicine for tail rot.

My fish never had tail rot so can't say much more.

 

[Tswifty]

Holy crap... that's all I can really say...

You need to read/do research before you purchase things. This hobby is great, and extremely rewarding, but only if you take the time to understand it.

Otherwise you might as well flush your money and sanity down the toilet.

I suggest starting here SOON!!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

 

[Jay1982]

unfortunately. with your setup, the problems will never stop. This is because of two reasons. 1) You have way too many fish for a 37 gal. 2) You didn't cycle your tank. And you are unaware of what equpiment you own.

You'll need to either 1) get rid of the Tang, mandarin, and even your arrow crab, he'll turn eventually. This is a minimum, you'll probably need to take out more 2) upgrade your tank size.

Upgrading would be a better choice, it will allow you to use your current 37 gal as a sump. I also suggest you look into what equipment you currently have, like how many watts is your heater, what make and model are your powerheads. How many watts your bulbs are. Look into getting a protein skimmer and refugium. All while dumping the biowheels. HOB filters aren't the best for salt water tanks.

 

[Sk8r]

OK, kindly meant, here---you know you have made some serious mistakes you see; but you have made others you don't see yet. You should not have any of those fish yet, and you should not have anything but the barred goby and shrimp in that size tank. Most of the other fish are for 200 gallon tanks.
1. believe nothing else your fish store says.
2. get your advice here from the oldest reefers.

My advice: return ALL livestock to the store or trade them to others in your area.
Second, start over with 1-2 lbs live rock per gallon, 1 lb aragonite sand per gallon, a sump and skimmer. (use a HOB downflow if you must).
Third_--no, make this First: read the entire * thread at the top of this forum: it will answer things you don't know how to ask yet.
Fourth, go through the cycle and get your own test kits.
Fifth, as you do get fish, ask about the appropriateness of those fish. FYI, stick to nano-fish, ie, those fish sold as appropriate for nanotanks, which is what you've got. Live Aquaria has that classification in its fish sales posts, so you can see what I'm talking about.
Sixth, establish a logbook for tests. And get real test kits. And run the tests daily during your first 3 months. YOu're in a game where precise chemistry counts: it's not that hard, but it's full of dots and 0's where the number of 0's matters greatly.
7th...quarantine...quarantine...quarantine.
8.th. abandon all ambitions for big fish or the most widely popularly visible fish (tangs, angels, butterflies, etc) in a 39 g tank. I run a 55. Look at my fish list. The biggest fish I own is the yellow watchman goby.
9. go slow and ask questions, as you are very commendably doing now.
10. consider mixing some soft coral into your tank---we're talking about mushrooms in that capacity elsewhere in the forum: they SHOW you when the water is off. And they show you before your fish feel it.
11. Get rid of the biowheel and get either an Aqua C Remora or (with sump) an Urchin skimmer.

You can only save your tang by giving him away, fast. And the engineer goby and mandarin and maroon clown should follow.

 

[Tswifty]

Honestly I would suggest taking all the fish back to the store... if they will even take them. Drain the tank, and start over allowing your tank to cycle properly this time. Seriously it sounds harsh, but I think your problems will continue to compound if you don't.

I mean outside the tang, you have a nem in underpowered lighting, and a mandarin dragonet in a possibly still uncycled tank.

 

[IFbettas]

All I can say is you need to slow down alot! You were putting lots of strain on the bioload of this system. I would not add any more fish or inverts for several more weeks preferably a month. I don't want to sound pushy but I had to say that. Basically you just need to let everything settle down. I'm sorry you lost your butterfly, but that fish too would have outgrown your tank. One day the tang will need a tank that is several hundred gallons in order for it to live a long, happy life. I hope he gets better.

 

[Tswifty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13093056#post13093056 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
OK, kindly meant, here---you know you have made some serious mistakes you see; but you have made others you don't see yet. You should not have any of those fish yet, and you should not have anything but the barred goby and shrimp in that size tank. Most of the other fish are for 200 gallon tanks.
1. believe nothing else your fish store says.
2. get your advice here from the oldest reefers.

My advice: return ALL livestock to the store or trade them to others in your area.
Second, start over with 1-2 lbs live rock per gallon, 1 lb aragonite sand per gallon, a sump and skimmer. (use a HOB downflow if you must).
Third_--no, make this First: read the entire * thread at the top of this forum: it will answer things you don't know how to ask yet.
Fourth, go through the cycle and get your own test kits.
Fifth, as you do get fish, ask about the appropriateness of those fish. FYI, stick to nano-fish, ie, those fish sold as appropriate for nanotanks, which is what you've got. Live Aquaria has that classification in its fish sales posts, so you can see what I'm talking about.
Sixth, establish a logbook for tests. And get real test kits. And run the tests daily during your first 3 months. YOu're in a game where precise chemistry counts: it's not that hard, but it's full of dots and 0's where the number of 0's matters greatly.
7th...quarantine...quarantine...quarantine.
8.th. abandon all ambitions for big fish or the most widely popularly visible fish (tangs, angels, butterflies, etc) in a 39 g tank. I run a 55. Look at my fish list. The biggest fish I own is the yellow watchman goby.
9. go slow and ask questions, as you are very commendably doing now.
10. consider mixing some soft coral into your tank---we're talking about mushrooms in that capacity elsewhere in the forum: they SHOW you when the water is off. And they show you before your fish feel it.
11. Get rid of the biowheel and get either an Aqua C Remora or (with sump) an Urchin skimmer.

You can only save your tang by giving him away, fast. And the engineer goby and mandarin and maroon clown should follow.

...errr uh... what sk8r said :lol:

 

[IFbettas]

I just noticed you have a mandarin as well. It will surely starve in this tank if the cycling doesn't kill it first. You should get rid of this and the rest of your fish immediately.

 

[kristytang]

thank you for all the replies. i know i made huge mistakes but i didnt really know and all that i have is based off the advice of my LFS. they even insisted we could have more fish. money hungry. i am really trying to fix the mistakes i have made. we have since found another LFS that is helping us through this (and in the beggining even refused to sell us certain fish, thank god) but theyre a good hour away. we do have a 75 weve been wanting to set up but dont have equiptment for it. i am not adding anything more for at least two months, if not longer. everything weve tested on the 37 is good (nitrite, nitrate, amonia, ph, alk, calc, temp, SG). as for the tang i cant find a fish store that will take him, expecially now that he is sick so im not sure what to do about that. my biggest problem is i am an impulse buyer, i see a fish, i buy it, i research it when i get home. that has stopped, i do not even want to buy another fish ever haha. another part was i cant pass up a good deal, and with the LR and tang, they were just so cheap (i know, at least now i do). ive set myself up for a huge loss, emotionally and financially. this is my tank before we traded in a few critters, but it basically looks the same.

 

[kristytang]

ok, forgot to add. i have to talk to my hubby about this, he is extremely hard headed and probably will put up a fight, but what exactly do i need to get rid of? rock, fish, inverts, etc.? i really want to do whats best here.

 

[Sk8r]

I am so sorry.
There are people we try to help that don't give a hang, but you clearly do, and I am sorry you have gotten into this backwards.
If the tang is not full grown and you can get him safely into hospital tank, (bare, no rock, no sand, just good filtration) and treat him in low light and good care until your tank is set up, you may be able to keep him a while. Check the FIsh DIsease forum for treatments. Ask there.
But the mandarin will starve without pods. If you can possibly set up a fuge connected to that tank, it will help everything, oxygenation for the tang, food for the mandy...get a big, big ball of cheato and pods (and high oxygen) should come with it. Ask Cap'n Hylinur about setting up a fuge.
The engineer will cause rockfalls, and deplete the sandbed, I fear: they're diggers. But you may be able to live with him.
We'll help you out as best we can. Ask what you need and start with that * thread, which will have a lot of info for you.

What needs to go, by giveaway, is every fish but the barred goby and the shrimp can stay. You actually need more live rock, by the look of it. And you need that fuge. That clown tang maxes 15 inches; the orange shoulder...I forget, but a little under 10". Cruel to keep them: they're wide-ocean runners at very high speeds: their bodies need that to fully oxygenate their tissues, sort of your living in a closet or Harry Potter under the stairs. You really need to stretch sometimes.

 

[kristytang]

i will check out that thread, thank you.
the engineer we have had for a while and he hasnt knocked anything down yet, he has his tunnel that he stopped digging (no more piles of sand on the outside. the tang is currently in a 15 gal hospital tank, all that is in there is a very very thin layer of sand where im treating him with malafix. there is a small filter in there with plants only in it and a heater. its at a constant 80. there isnt any lighting, just the lamp thats next to it and everyday i do about a 25% water change on that (i have a bucket airated with salt water constantly-i take some water from my main tank, put it in the hospital, and refil the main tank with the water from the bucket) to try and keep levels from spiking (nitrite keeps climbing up but i cant put him back in the main tank). i know this probably doesnt mean anything, but i see copes all over the rocks all the time and on the glass. the mandarin is always looking at them and picking at the rocks. is there a place i can get more or am i better off just finding him a better home?
i dont have a clown tang, so consider it gone

 

[Sk8r]

That is good. thank goodness re the clown tang.
The mandarin you could keep if you could get a fuge going. We ran a calc and found that a mandy probably eats 10,000 pods a day, at 5 hits a minute during daylight hrs. So they'll deplete fast unless you can keep a breeding population (fuge) where little greedyguts can't eat it up.
I'm not impressed with Melafix. It's not antibiotic: it's tea tree oil, if I recall. What you need for fin rot is an antibiotic. Maracyn, I think, but doublecheck in the disease forum.
If you added Melafix to your tank it probably still has bacteria in it. If you added an antibiotic it could have killed your live rock and sand both...the fact you have pods indicates something living is going on in there, so I'm thinking you might have lucked out there. but by now you are probably up to your ears in rescue tanks, etc. Do two things for your tang: soak his food in a product called Selcon (food supplement) and oxygenate his tank bigtime; plus see/ask if you can switch to an antibiotic without a 100% water change---I don't know how it will interface with Melafix.
Ask about a fuge. If your mandy starts to starve, you can keep him going by buying big cheato balls and putting them in a tank where you light it, dip out water and keep trading it with the main tank: cheato always comes in with pods. With a full-functioning fuge and good flow (oxygen), you might keep your tang until he starts to grow---you'll know when. Mandy, must be fed all along. Till your rocks start falling over, the engineer will be ok. Your crustaceans---the coral banded shrimp may eat small fish. The arrow crab eats bristle worms, which your tank needs for good health. And may make a pest of himself otherwise. They're funny, but I'd consider moving him out.

 

[kristytang]

the treatment was in a hospital (luckly i asked my LFS and they gave me a hour lecture about treating a whole tank haha). the tang is looking a lot better, his fin isnt so raggidy, i added a bubbler and now he is a lot more active. i will have to get that selcon, thanks for the info. malafix says 'antibacterial fish remedy' on the front, but yes it is tea tree oil. it has melaleuca in it but thats about all i know. smells good (to me).
what are cheato balls? and i had read the hairy arrows are filter feeders, not so? we have a TON of bristle worms, wouldnt mind a few missing in action. he is a silly little thing, yesterday he was walking across our anemone (straight through the middle).
so tang needs to go? sorry, you said he could stay and then that he needs to go...

 

[Sk8r]

If he's a filter feeder, Ok, no problem. Never met the hairy ones.

Basically your tang can grow larger than is easy in your size tank. I assume he is tiny now, but if you can get him well, you can keep him until he gets to be a bull in a small-tank china shop---then move him out, for his own good.

Cheato ball: cheatomorpha algae, has no roots, rolls in current, great algae for fuge, produces huge amount of oxygen and also pods (copepods), a crustacean which many fish like for a snack.

I'm thinking the orange shoulder tang is one of the smallest, and may top out at 8 inches. (Big tangs can reach 1' 8".) I'm all for your having him until you yourself know he has to go for his own sake, but continue selcon feeding: vitamins; and get that cheato going: increases oxygenation he will need.

 

[Jandree22]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13093048#post13093048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Holy crap... that's all I can really say...

You need to read/do research before you purchase things. This hobby is great, and extremely rewarding, but only if you take the time to understand it.

Otherwise you might as well flush your money and sanity down the toilet.

I suggest starting here SOON!!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

Agreed, well said.

I did not read through this whole thread, but undoubtedly Sk8r and others have given great advice so far. All I will say is the hardest aspect to this hobby is patience. It's not fun waiting and taking things slow, I know, but it will help by letting your system mature as well as give you more research time. That thread linked above is golden, take some time to read through EVERYTHING there, and adhere to that stuff... most of the contents are not just suggestions

Don't fret over this whole thing though, admit to it or not, everyone has had n00b mishaps in their past. There is A LOT to know in this hobby, you'll never stop learning stuff, but don't let this make it seem daunting. IMO it's fun learning how everything works... part of the challenge that makes it satisfying.

Anywho, wishing you the best... good luck!