ORA Green Mandarin - not eating?

[jgmorr02]

Can you isolate him in a breeders net and feed him in it where there is no competition? Try getting some live brine shrimp to put in with him. It may take the movement to get him eating. If that works then gradually over the course of a few meals add in a few pieces of frozen mysis or roe with the live brine and see if he eats them. I would try anything to get him eating at this point or he's likely doomed.

 

[Lion-o]

Currently I do not own a breeders net or a fish container. (Normally I use tupperware to transfers the cuties from QT). Tomorrow while at the LFS i'll see what they have.

 

[Fish Bowl]

When training to eat frozen, how long would you expect him to stare at food before pecking at it? Mine will just stare at it and ignore it - the problem is not other fish getting to it first. Actually, I've gotten him to go into a shot glass with food multiple times, but he seems uninterested and leaves, and then later the hermits get to it.

Usually flow to make the food look "live" is one of the most important parts of training one. In addition to that, if it continues to show disinterest in the food offered (through water flow, or pipette/baster) then it's wise to move on to another food to train it (more difficult to do in a display since it's not as easy to get all the food cleaned up/not all your fish may accept the other foods used to train it or it's not good for them to such as blood worms)

Also I do apologize Danny about not responding to your PM. I didn't realize that there's a minimum post count before I can respond to PMs so if you don't mind I can answer your PM here if you don't mind.

 

[Lion-o]

Fish Bowl,
Feel free to reply here. Its not a problem. Thanks!

 

[Rybren]

Can you isolate him in a breeders net and feed him in it where there is no competition? Try getting some live brine shrimp to put in with him. It may take the movement to get him eating. If that works then gradually over the course of a few meals add in a few pieces of frozen mysis or roe with the live brine and see if he eats them. I would try anything to get him eating at this point or he's likely doomed.

If you don't have access to an established tank with lots of pods, the above would also be my suggestion. In fact, it MAY even work better than placing the fish in the established tank.

There is a great article in the Nov/Dec 11 issue of Coral Magazine that details how to train a Mandarin to eat frozen foods. The comment above is very similar to the instructions in the article, although the article states that it may take months.

 

[davocean]

The only problem w/ buying pods now is it is a little late in chasing the problem.
That bottle may contain a pretty good amount, but when you see that bottle the first time you may feel cheated in what you see.
Those pods are really best to help boost your tank w/ breeding pods before having an issue.
Pouring one bottle will disperse very quickly and they are going to get eaten before having a chance to reproduce enough to really help.
That is why it is also very important to have a fuge, a place where they can reproduce w/out predation.
A mandarin has a very high metabolism, and eats about 1-3 pods per minute, so even if they are eating prep'd food it's pretty hard to replicate that.
Honestly, even if you got that mandarin in an established tank full of pods today, as skinny as it is, it's chances of survival are pretty slim.
Usually when they look like that it's too late, sorry, just being honest.
I'd hate to see you spend $100 or more on pods and still have it die.
A better solution would be put it where it has a chance of survival, and prep your tank for a mandarin in the future, and that prep should include a good size fuge.

 

[snorvich]

The only problem w/ buying pods now is it is a little late in chasing the problem.
That bottle may contain a pretty good amount, but when you see that bottle the first time you may feel cheated in what you see.
Those pods are really best to help boost your tank w/ breeding pods before having an issue.
Pouring one bottle will disperse very quickly and they are going to get eaten before having a chance to reproduce enough to really help.
That is why it is also very important to have a fuge, a place where they can reproduce w/out predation.
A mandarin has a very high metabolism, and eats about 1-3 pods per minute, so even if they are eating prep'd food it's pretty hard to replicate that.
Honestly, even if you got that mandarin in an established tank full of pods today, as skinny as it is, it's chances of survival are pretty slim.
Usually when they look like that it's too late, sorry, just being honest.
I'd hate to see you spend $100 or more on pods and still have it die.
A better solution would be put it where it has a chance of survival, and prep your tank for a mandarin in the future, and that prep should include a good size fuge.

Unfortunately, I agree. For me, a properly sized mature tank and a healthy wild caught mandarin has always worked for me.

 

[purdueav8r]

I've been doing a lot of research on Mandarins as I was hoping to have one in my tank once it matures. One thing I saw people doing with their Mandarins was making a Mandarin diner, or feeding station for them. I found this post on another forum that gives instructions (apologies, but I can't remember where I found it, I copied it for my own future reference, so I'm unable to give credit.) It has pictures & is quite helpful. I don't know if you have enough time to mess with this given the looks of your little guy in the pictures, though. But here it is:

Don't want to hijack this thread but in a nutshell this is what I did. Made an acrylic feeding station for $2 with parts from Canal Plastics as seen below. Just drill a hole and make sure it's a tight fit, otherwise get some acrylic epoxy or bond, whatever. Asked lfs to throw some live brine in the mandarin tank and chose the first one that went for it. He was very skinny and emaciated so I figured he'd have a better chance with me than with lfs or even worse, a casual fish buyer.

Got home and gut fed a cup of live brine with selcon and squeezed some down the station every day for a week.
After a week, every time I'd come near the tank he'd zoom right into the station and hang out there.
Started mixing one or two pieces of frozen brine until he accidentally ate a piece and realized it was food. This was the longest step. Took a while. Then gradually put more and more frozen brine and less and less live brine.
Once you totally wean him off live brine, DO NOT give him live brine again, even if it's just a treat. It will take him longer to totally accept frozen. Then, after he's only on frozen brine, do the same with mysis.

This is what worked for me. Also, if you have other fish that will eat everything before the mandarin does, stick the feeder in a corner surrounded by rocks. Mandarins swim on the floor, upside down, and go places most other fish can't get to.

Hope this helps,
Art

Also found some good information on Melev's Reef. http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_diner.html

 

[davocean]

I've seen that feeder before, and some claim to have success w/ that.
I'm not sure what to think on it since it still doesn't make up for what they really need, maybe it helps in some rare situations, but you would need a mandarin healthy enough to train it, and that would probably take more time than op has in this case.
There are ways of beating our general guidlines as to tank size and amount of LR/pods needed, just depends on how far you are willing to go and how much free time you have I guess.

 

[matt frizz]

The main point is that the mandarin's diet should be pods and supplemental feedings of mysis/brine/etc. You need to be proactive when dosing pods to your tank. What I did was 1. Establish the tank for two years with a fuge so a supply of pods was already available 2. Dosed the tank with 1000 pods from reefs2go.com 3. Waited another year to really allow the pods to breed in the rock and fuge

Now when i look in my sump all i see are pods. When I lift a rock all I see are pods. OP I attempted to keep a scooter blenny back when I first started reefing and when he got as skinny as yours it was good game. I found him picked clean by the hermits that I used to keep.

That mandarin diner is really cool though purdueav8r! Something that would need to be setup before the one month mark though. Keep trying to get him eating but I still think that getting him back to the LFS or into a more established tank is the best course of action.

 

[Lion-o]

Hello all and thanks again for all the replies.

I stopped at the lfs and picked up pretty much everything they had. No live brine shrimp or breeding nets, but I did get a specimen container, tigger pods, phyto feast (mainly for the pods) and for the heck of it mysis feast. I drilled 4 holes in the specimen container to let flow through to make the food swirl around a bit. I basted him with some pods and some nutramar ova and am going to leave him in a bit to see if it disappears.

If I still can't get him eating, then it will most likely be back to the lfs as so far I haven't had any offers for a home willing to take him nearby.

Oh btw, like I mentioned earlier, I've had my tank for over a year now and I do have lots of life in the substrate. I had the guys at the lfs show me the difference in the pods since I wasn't sure what I had, and I do have lots of copepods. For whatever reason though, he seems to ignore them or maybe his eyesight is not as good as mine!

-danny

 

[Fish Bowl]

Fish Bowl,
Feel free to reply here. Its not a problem. Thanks!

Let me look through my pc to see if I have a video of one trained via "bowl method"

I don't advise stealing a powerhead from your qt unless if your willing to sun-dry it first (The whole idea of saving the mandarin won't be worth it if you end up bringing something unwanted to the DT)

As for taking it out of the tank for feeding, I would highly advise against it due to the sensitive situation it's in (on the extreme side of skinny) which is why I recommended adding a bowl/jar/shot glass to the tank to reduce the likelyhood of stressing it will still being capable of creating or imitating the movement of live foods.

And separate from the PM, the pod population IMO would never be adequate enough in anything under 100 gallons (assuming a reasonable amount of porous rock is in there although 150+gallon is even better) so dosing pods (initially) is only delaying the inevitable since a healthy mandarin can eat well over 300+ in a day (Just from my observation of them over an hour with some multiplication) and a bottle of them at most comes with 2000 (unless I'm behind on the days).
Thus if your stuck dosing pods that's $$$$ that could be used to get a a better tank size or at WORST case scenario if willing, start over after being WELL prepared with multiple foods and supplies ready for training a mandarin (of course not an extremely skinny one or too large/small one).

 

[davocean]

Just to give an example for what you need tank size or fuge wise, I had a 90g that had close to max amount of rock, but w/out a sump/fuge.
One single mandarin wiped out the pods, and when he became skinny I did the same as you in chasing after the problem after it started, added tons of bottled pods(and agree, gets expensive) and I added a HO fuge as big as CPR made.
It was just too late.
Your system at that size w/out a fuge is going to be an even greater challenge.
W/out having a safe breeding area already in affect for pods they will wipe out what is in your display very quickly.
last I checked livaquaria had 16oz bottles w/ 200-300 pods, and they eat 1-3 pods per minute all day long.
I'll let you do the math on how many bottles you'll need per week.

 

[tandldel]

After reading this thread I thought I'd suggest you read the article in the coral magazine this past November and December issue. It goes into great detail on th husbandry of these animals. It mainly is a lot patience and effort to get them eating froze foods but once accomplished they can be kept in any size aquarium. The real issue is you have to commit a lot of time into reaching the goal of getting them to eat. Sounds crazy but moving one to a small 10 gal aquarium and target feeding and being persistent may be your best option. As one post has said they will eat the entire pod population in a day and keep it from replenishing. Even on a large aquarium the most viable option is to have them eating frozen food. The article in Coral will go over how to achieve this goal. Good luck they are great fish but a lot of work initially but worth it.

 

[Lion-o]

I don't suppose you could supply a link to said article?

As this guy was still not eating very much we decided to return him to the lfs. They put him directly in a large display fuge so hopefully he eats his fill there. For whatever reason, he just didn't seem very interested in eating in our tank (my fiance thinks he was anorexic) no matter what we presented him. We may try again in the future with another ORA mandarin.

 

[tandldel]

I don't suppose you could supply a link to said article?

As this guy was still not eating very much we decided to return him to the lfs. They put him directly in a large display fuge so hopefully he eats his fill there. For whatever reason, he just didn't seem very interested in eating in our tank (my fiance thinks he was anorexic) no matter what we presented him. We may try again in the future with another ORA mandarin.

Try this http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20111112#pg45

Mine took awhile but goes for the nutramar roe and PE mysis consistently. Still need to use a feeding tube as he will come right to it now. Does eat though when regular tank feedings but I don't think he gets enough so I supplement this way. As I mentioned earlier in the thread he does not eat stationary food it must be drifting around slowly so it's kinda weird that way but doable.
Hope this helps.

 

[davocean]

Even on a large aquarium the most viable option is to have them eating frozen food.

Most people experienced w/ them are going to disagree w/ this, again, their high metabolism requires constant feedings, much like a hummingbird.
My tank is not especially large at 150g, yet I have a mated pair doing wonderful, and my female was as skinny as OP's on delivery and made a full comeback, naturally, no special spot feeding at all.
I have seen my male pick up mysis once in a blue moon when it drifts in front of him, but that is rare.

 

[tandldel]

Most people experienced w/ them are going to disagree w/ this, again, their high metabolism requires constant feedings, much like a hummingbird.
My tank is not especially large at 150g, yet I have a mated pair doing wonderful, and my female was as skinny as OP's on delivery and made a full comeback, naturally, no special spot feeding at all.
I have seen my male pick up mysis once in a blue moon when it drifts in front of him, but that is rare.

Not saying that a large reef with refugium won't work by any means. Every situation is different but I am suggesting that the method in the article is proven to work as well but takes a commitment. I do agree that pod supplementation is part of the equation and did not mean to say it was not. Larger tanks and added refugiums will of course prove to promote the survival and I would highly suggest doing all the above. I have also seen them starve in large well established systems with great pod populations too..so committing to training them should be a part of the consideration before purchase regardless IMO...

 

[reefsafe]

FishBowl, Your information on tigger pods is incorrect:

"
Climate / Temperature

They do not live in the open ocean - they live in the warm upper splash zone tide pools. They are not adapted to survive in the kind of environment that the open ocean typically provides. Anyone who has spent any time tide-pooling in the upper splash zones of the coast of California can tell you the upper pools can experience extended periods (days to weeks) of daily highs in the mid to high 90's (°F) during summer.
Here are a couple of independent links regarding Tigriopus californicus:"

http://wiki.reefnutrition.com/w/page/14004561/Tigger-Pods FAQ

 

[Fish Bowl]

FishBowl, Your information on tigger pods is incorrect:

"
Climate / Temperature

They do not live in the open ocean - they live in the warm upper splash zone tide pools. They are not adapted to survive in the kind of environment that the open ocean typically provides. Anyone who has spent any time tide-pooling in the upper splash zones of the coast of California can tell you the upper pools can experience extended periods (days to weeks) of daily highs in the mid to high 90's (°F) during summer.
Here are a couple of independent links regarding Tigriopus californicus:"

http://wiki.reefnutrition.com/w/page/14004561/Tigger-Pods FAQ

Hmm, that's quite interesting. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't done extensive research on Tigger pods. What I know about them is based on various wholesellers and even honest LFS that offer these Tigger pods(Their information could very well be about the canadian species which according to your link, thrives in colder/exist in colder climates).
However, at the same time the site you listed is done by some people who sell Tigger pods = can their information be trusted? (once again, I haven't done extensive research on them so it's best to question other sources if possible)

Regardless of my temperature aspect of "Tigger pods" being inaccurate, them being a waste of money as a "self" reproducing food source for the mandarin is still quite accurate from the same site you listed as quoted below

Tigger-pods will typically not thrive in your main tank for three reasons:

1) there is no place for them to hide, and they are such attractive food that they get eaten quickly and disappear

2) there is not enough food (microalgae) for them

3) it takes 20-30 days from when their eggs are laid until they mature into breeding adults ready to start laying eggs, so the chances that they can persist long enough to breed under these conditions is practically zero.

In 20-30 days of waiting for more pods to be born (if they even survive 2-3 days of the mandarin eating) the mandarin will starve to death or you'll be spending 10-20 dollars per bottle just to keep it alive every few days.