organic carbon dosing

[machodik]

Dear All,

I have been dosing my aquarium with Vodka and it does reduced the No3. but in view of minimizing problem of single specie bacteria growth....should I do alternatives dosing with Glucose? if so, is it just using normal household table sugar? if so, how is the composition? 1 teaspoon per 25 gallon water??? or perhaps need to buy the glucose dextrose use in the hospital?

Cheers,


MD

 

[HighlandReefer]

My experience when I tried glucose was not a good one. Coral are very senistive to glucose levels. I have successfuly used sugar at very low doses and it worked, but many report negative results. Personally I would stick with vinegar and/or vodka. My preference is vinegar.

 

[HighlandReefer]

"but in view of minimizing problem of single specie bacteria growth"

Acetate which is what vinegar is, stimulates the growth of many, many different species of bacteria including anaerobic and aerobic bacteria, so I don't buy your theory myself.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Perhaps the information provided in the article below, is one reason why some hobbyists see problems with cyanobacteria using vodka and not when using vinegar. Of course this is a stretch. :lol:

Propionate Oxidation by and Methanol Inhibition of Anaerobic Ammonium-Oxidizing Bacteria (Accepted 27 September 2004)

http://aem.asm.org/content/71/2/1066.abstract

Didem Güven1, Ana Dapena2, Boran Kartal3, Markus C. Schmid4, Bart Maas3, Katinka van de Pas-Schoonen3, Seval Sozen1, Ramon Mendez2, Huub J. M. Op den Camp3, Mike S. M. Jetten3,4, Marc Strous3,* and Ingo Schmidt3,5

ABSTRACT

Anaerobic ammonium oxidation (anammox) is a recently discovered microbial pathway and a cost-effective way to remove ammonium from wastewater. Anammox bacteria have been described as obligate chemolithoautotrophs. However, many chemolithoautotrophs (i.e., nitrifiers) can use organic compounds as a supplementary carbon source. In this study, the effect of organic compounds on anammox bacteria was investigated. It was shown that alcohols inhibited anammox bacteria, while organic acids were converted by them. Methanol was the most potent inhibitor, leading to complete and irreversible loss of activity at concentrations as low as 0.5 mM. Of the organic acids acetate and propionate, propionate was consumed at a higher rate (0.8 nmol min−1 mg of protein−1) by Percoll-purified anammox cells. Glucose, formate, and alanine had no effect on the anammox process. It was shown that propionate was oxidized mainly to CO2, with nitrate and/or nitrite as the electron acceptor. The anammox bacteria carried out propionate oxidation simultaneously with anaerobic ammonium oxidation. In an anammox enrichment culture fed with propionate for 150 days, the relative amounts of anammox cells and denitrifiers did not change significantly over time, indicating that anammox bacteria could compete successfully with heterotrophic denitrifiers for propionate. In conclusion, this study shows that anammox bacteria have a more versatile metabolism than previously assumed.

 

[bif24701]

Propionate Oxidation by and Methanol Inhibition of Anaerobic Ammonium-Oxidizing Bacteria (Accepted 27 September 2004)

http://aem.asm.org/content/71/2/1066.abstract

Didem Güven1, Ana Dapena2, Boran Kartal3, Markus C. Schmid4, Bart Maas3, Katinka van de Pas-Schoonen3, Seval Sozen1, Ramon Mendez2, Huub J. M. Op den Camp3, Mike S. M. Jetten3,4, Marc Strous3,* and Ingo Schmidt3,5

ABSTRACT

Anaerobic ammonium oxidation (anammox) is a recently discovered microbial pathway and a cost-effective way to remove ammonium from wastewater. Anammox bacteria have been described as obligate chemolithoautotrophs. However, many chemolithoautotrophs (i.e., nitrifiers) can use organic compounds as a supplementary carbon source. In this study, the effect of organic compounds on anammox bacteria was investigated. It was shown that alcohols inhibited anammox bacteria, while organic acids were converted by them. Methanol was the most potent inhibitor, leading to complete and irreversible loss of activity at concentrations as low as 0.5 mM. Of the organic acids acetate and propionate, propionate was consumed at a higher rate (0.8 nmol min−1 mg of protein−1) by Percoll-purified anammox cells. Glucose, formate, and alanine had no effect on the anammox process. It was shown that propionate was oxidized mainly to CO2, with nitrate and/or nitrite as the electron acceptor. The anammox bacteria carried out propionate oxidation simultaneously with anaerobic ammonium oxidation. In an anammox enrichment culture fed with propionate for 150 days, the relative amounts of anammox cells and denitrifiers did not change significantly over time, indicating that anammox bacteria could compete successfully with heterotrophic denitrifiers for propionate. In conclusion, this study shows that anammox bacteria have a more versatile metabolism than previously assumed.

Very interesting justification for using vinegar vs vodka. And vinegar is so much cheaper.

 

[machodik]

speaking of Vinegar, are you refering here is the kitchen vinegar that we use for cooking or seasoning? if so, how is this being use in dosing as source of organic carbon in the aquarium? can anyone give some instructions?! thanks

 

[HighlandReefer]

I am talking about pure white distilled vinegar (colorless), not other forms often referred to as vinegar with extra ingredients added. In the states the distilled vinegar is about 5% acetic acid.

You can use pure Glacial acetic acid and dilute it down.

 

[tmz]

There is no reason to fret about single species bacteria growth( mono culures) imo and experience. I've tried very small amounts of sugar along with vodka and vinegar with very bad reactions , browning and recession by some lps.
Vinegar seems to be an excellent carbon source providing benefical acetate too. The argument for using it exclusively is a strong one .

On the other hand, vodka has caused no difficulties in combination with some vinegar roughly 75% vodka nd 25% vinegar in terms of total carbon source in my system. Vinegar can spike ph downward if not dosed over a period of time during photosynthetic periods while vodka will also have ph lowering effects they take place gradually and bolus dosing is an option which suits my long established routine . This mix has been used for about 3 yrs and I'm reluctant to shift it to more vinegar since things are settled in and I'm happy with the results.

Cliff, nice piece on ammonox .Thanks for sharing it. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Tom.

 

[Melchiah]

Hi!

I'm currently using 3 ml of vodka per day in a 166 gal system. If I want to dose vinegar, how much should I dose? Is a relation of 1:1 of vinegar:vodka ?

Thanx.

 

[bif24701]

Vodka 80 proof (40% alc by vol.) Is about 8 times stronger than vinegar (5%).

 

[Melchiah]

So it will be 8 x 3 ml of vinegar??

 

[SBV]

Yes, 24ml.

 

[fishflorist]

I am talking about pure white distilled vinegar (colorless), not other forms often referred to as vinegar with extra ingredients added. In the states the distilled vinegar is about 5% acetic acid.

You can use pure Glacial acetic acid and dilute it down.

I am just about to start a new thread about this question and I see this one .
Thanks.

But I find Glacial acetic acid here in China maybe unreliable , but I'm quite sure I can buy some high grade calcium acetate or magnesium acetate, they are all soluble things, can they be used as organic carbon source ?

in the other hand I heard that glacial acetic acid is explosive and dangerous is that true ?

 

[bertoni]

Calcium acetate can be used as a one-part supplement, because it supplies calcium and alkalinity at the right ratio. Magnesium acetate is useful for adding very small amounts magnesium only. Generally, it'll drive the alkalinity too high for most uses in a tank.

 

[tmz]

Glacial acetic acid is about 99% pure acetic acid in anhydrous crystal form.It is corrosive and can burn you. According to the material data sheet , it is very hazardous in case of skin contact, eye contact ,inhalation or ingestion and slightly explosive and sligtly flammable in contact with oxidizing agents or metals.


It scares me.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/fire1.htm

White vinegar is only 5% acetic acid and 95% water .

 

[wayne in norway]

Can we clarify this for fishflorist, and myself?

We are talking about acetic acid as a source of carbon for dentrafication via bacteria re. vodka.

The use of Calcium acetate is as a one part Ca additive that is balanced. It dissociates, the Ca bit becomes, well Ca, the acetate part breaks down to alkalinity.

Is there ever a scenario with Ca acetate that the acetate part can become involved in denitrafication?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there ever a scenario with Ca acetate that the acetate part can become involved in denitrafication?

Why wouldn't it? The acetate added is no different than when adding vinegar.

As to the above discussion of monocultures, I don't know if it happens, but I see zero reason to be worried that it might.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I am just about to start a new thread about this question and I see this one .
Thanks.

But I find Glacial acetic acid here in China maybe unreliable , but I'm quite sure I can buy some high grade calcium acetate or magnesium acetate, they are all soluble things, can they be used as organic carbon source ?

in the other hand I heard that glacial acetic acid is explosive and dangerous is that true ?

Glacial acetic acid needs to be respected & used properly according to the label. It can be dangerous if mishandled. To put things into perspective, we use gasoline all the time which is much more dangerous than glacial acetic acid.

Here in the States they sell acetic acid at different strengths inlcuding 5% acetic acid. So you don't necessarily need to buy it at 98% acetic acid & when diluted enough is much safer.

 

[fishflorist]

thanks guys, so I can use Calcium acetate as a carbon source right ?