Overextended clam?

LCDRDATA

New member
I'm cross-posting this from the newbie forum - link is here

We bought a croseus clam for our 75 gallon setup at the end of August. We knew it had to be fairly high up in the tank to get enough light. It didn't seem happy the first 2-3 places we put it - we kept getting up in the morning to find it "face down" on the bottom of the tank after it had let go and fallen off of where we'd placed it. It's been where it is now for a couple of months, though, so I think we've solved that problem.

However, we noticed early on that the mantle was extended much farther out than we'd expected. :confused: It's something like 3-4 inches beyond the edge of the shell:

194807hypermantle_1.jpg

194807hypermantle_2.jpg


Is this normal, and if not, why might it be doing this? We're feeding it regularly with DT's phytoplankton, and water parameters are good (we've just been through a nitrate spike, but that seems to be over, and there was never any difference in this regard before, during, or now after). Any insights are greatly appreciated!

It would be easier for me if you posted any answers there, but please post here if it's that or nothing - I value your input!
 
The current lighting is two twin 48" T5s - one has two 10,000K (I believe) bulbs, the other has one 10,000K and one actinic. The 10,000Ks might all be 14,000Ks, but it's definitely one or the other.

We thought about trying to place it higher, but it's within 5" of the surface as is, and there didn't seem to be anyplace more than about an inch closer to the surface - the one place that was higher was the second location we tried, only to find it face down in the sand the next morning.

Here are a couple of additional pics (not that great but illustrative):

194807hypermantle_3.jpg

194807hypermantle_4.jpg
 
Cross-posting again -

So far it looks like three votes for more light - any other ideas? Do you think it's just light, or light and some other factor? In the meantime, as a stop-gap I have a 26W 6500K compact fluorescent in a plant light spot fixture and I'm putting it directly over the clam - we'll see if that helps while working on a more permanent solution.

Given the way our tank is set up, the most straightforward options to boost light would be either what I've just described, some kind of more powerful/focused spot lighting, or an additional twin 48" T5 fixture. If I go with another twin T5, those come standard with one 10,000K and one actinic - would that be enough or should I swap out the actinic for another 10,000K bulb? On either my current setup or adding a third twin, would it make any difference if I went to 14,000K or 20,000K bulbs vice the 10,000K? Metal halides aren't an option, as they literally give my wife migraines - just something about the light quality.

In terms of potentially moving the clam closer to the top of the tank - not easy as we'd need some serious rearranging, but better that than losing the clam - how can I get the clam to let go of where it's finally anchored without just ripping it off? To reverse the phrase, I don't want to add injury to insult.

The clam and I are waiting for even more of your good inputs - Thanks!
 
It doesnt look overextended but its color is rather bland which could result from lack of light. It could just be the picture quality. Could you take a top down shot of it? Are they HO-T5's or regular T5's?
 
the way the mantle is reaching is a sign of insufficient light, move him up and / or increase light. crocea clams are found in very shallow water and need very strong light or they will stave to death regardless of supplemental feeding.

please post a top down shot.
 
First, thanks to everyone for your continued input.

Second, I've made note of the requests for a top-down shot. Unfortunately I saw those requests AFTER :( I'd dosed the tank with Liquid Calcium Reactor so the water is somewhat murky and this isn't the best - I'll try and get a better shot tomorrow

194807hypermantle_5.jpg


Regarding JohnnyBravo's question on standard vs HO T5s, I'll admit I'm not sure - I was under the impression all T5s were HO bulbs. How can you tell if they're HO or not?

I've received some additional input on the newby thread suggesting that this may not be a light issue, and tonight the LFS (NOT the one I bought the clam from) opined the same thing. I'll admit to being a little conflicted at this point - it's really not clear to me whether light is the issue or not, or even if there is an issue (if ReefFreek917's 800 watts of MH aren't enough to keep one from extending like this, I don't know what would be!). What I have done since I got home from work today is add the 26W 6500K spot I mentioned earlier, and added a flow enhancer to my inlet and another pump elsewhere to significantly increase the overall flow in my tank. Hopefully the photo above - or the one I hope to post tomorrow - will provide a better guide to how this clam is doing. Thanks for the help - please keep it coming!
 
how much liquid Ca are you adding???

do you add an ALK as well??

how and where and when do you add them??

the rolling down of the outside edge of the mantle leads me to believe there is and ALK problem but this wouldn't cause the clam to reach.

please post all you test paramaters???

the mantle extension isn't the problem, it the fact that it isn't laying down on the shell, it is reaching for light.

can you ask reeffreek to post a pic of his clam??
 
First of all, here's a much better shot looking straight down -

194807hypermantle_6.jpg


Second, here are the answers to the questions posed:

how much liquid Ca are you adding???

Generally, I dose KentMarine Liquid Calcium about twice a week per the label directions.

do you add an ALK as well??

Yes; generally, I dose KentMarine ProBuffer dKh about three times a week per the label directions. The product I used last night is a combination calcium and alk source. I also dose magnesium (stock solution mixed from flake) weekly.

how and where and when do you add them??

I measure them out with a graduated cylinder and add them to the sump where the current can mix them a bit more before they hit the intake. The ProBuffer directs to add in the morning, and I generally dose the calcium either a few minutes later or that evening. The product I used last night recommends dosing in the evening, so that's when I dose with it. I'm not using it as often (I'm running out, while I have plenty of the other two products), but I like to use it when I'm changing my flow because it provides a good visual.

the rolling down of the outside edge of the mantle leads me to believe there is and ALK problem but this wouldn't cause the clam to reach.

please post all you test paramaters???

Temp: ~77
Salinity: 1.026
pH: 8.2
Ammonia, Nitrite, Phosphate: 0
Nitrate: 25 (working on it; coming off a spike and down considerably)
Alkalinity: 2.5 meq/l (dKh 7)
Calcium: 470
Magnesium: 1425

the mantle extension isn't the problem, it the fact that it isn't laying down on the shell, it is reaching for light.

can you ask reeffreek to post a pic of his clam??

I will do that on the other thread, and cross-post this as well.

OK, hopefully that provides enough additional information to help figure this all out.
 
try dosing the Ca and ALK slower, it shouldn't cloud the water like that.

your clam is turning white, there can be little doubt that your clam needs more light and fast. if you look at the mantle, you can see a few spots of blue left but the majority is turning a pale white.

clams are photosynthetic or at least the zoox. algae hosted in the clams mantle is. if they don't receive enough light to support life the zoox. will start to disappear. the clam relies on this zoox. for all of his energy, so if the zoox. disappears the clam will slowly starve to death.

you need to increase the amount of light the clam is getting immediately. it needs to be done very carefully at this point to not shock the clam as this may cause him to dump the remaining zoox., which could be fatal.

can you post a pic of your lighting fixtures?

do they have individual reflectors??

how old are the bulbs??

what kelvin are they?

can you move him up??
 
OK, let me try to answer your questions and we'll hopefully get this figured out together. This is a rather lengthy, detailed post, so please be patient and read carefully. :)

try dosing the Ca and ALK slower, it shouldn't cloud the water like that.

For the Liquid Reactor, this kind of cloudiness is normal and expected. The other products don't cloud up like this.

your clam is turning white, there can be little doubt that your clam needs more light and fast. if you look at the mantle, you can see a few spots of blue left but the majority is turning a pale white.

For what it's worth, the good news here is that the clam is actually bluer "in person" than you can tell from the photo. I'm not disputing what you're saying, only that it's not quite as desperate as it appears.

you need to increase the amount of light the clam is getting immediately. it needs to be done very carefully at this point to not shock the clam as this may cause him to dump the remaining zoox., which could be fatal.

This is where it gets a little tricky. How much can we increase the lighting, how fast? Hold that thought - more discussion down a little farther.

can you post a pic of your lighting fixtures?

194807Aqualight_T5.jpg


194807Aqualight_T5_closeup.jpg


do they have individual reflectors??

As you can see, there's no room for individual reflectors. However, as may (or may not) be apparent, the entire inside surface around the bulbs is reflective (I'm guessing aluminized mylar, but that's only a guess), so the vast majority of generated light is going into the tank.

how old are the bulbs?? what kelvin are they?

Three of the four bulbs are less than six months old - the actinic (420 nm) and two of the 10,000K bulbs. The other 10,000K bulb is a year or so old - looking at the fixtures turned so the bulbs are facing up, it looks as though its light output is fairly close to the other 10,000K bulbs.

That's the good news. The bad news is that while I thought these were all 54W bulbs, as it turns out only the older bulb is 54W. The newer bulbs are all 28W bulbs. Again, hold onto that thought for now; we'll discuss more in a moment.

can you move him up??

As a practical matter, no.

194807hypermantle_depth.jpg


This illustrates what I said above in an earlier post. The ruler ends 1/4" or less below the surface of the water, and even with the top and the fixture thickness the bulbs are only about an inch from the surface. So you can see the clam is only about 5" from the lights, which provides not much potential for substantially increasing the available light by moving it higher in the tank. Which brings us to issue number two.
194807hypermantle_foot.jpg


As you can see, the clam has worked itself over a raised area so it's sort of straddling a projection in the rock, with its foot and byssal fibers on either side. It's fairly rough, so I can't see a good way to even consider cutting it off. We placed the clam a couple inches farther back, and over the course of about a week it moved itself to its present location, where it's been anchored ever since - call it two months.

So, the bottom line is that currently the clam is under 2x28W 10,000K, another 10,000K that's supposed to put out 54W but currently putting out about 28W, and a 28W actinic. Add to that a 26W 6500K CF bulb in a 5 1/2" round metal reflector directly over the clam, which got added yesterday - and is (as it turns out) a larger percentage jump than I thought it would be, as the output of that bulb is nearly the same as the other individual bulbs but is concentrated on the clam. So there's already been a significant light increase, although admittedly not what will eventually be required.

Returning to earlier discussion points, the clam needs more light, but not so much more so rapidly that it dies from shock rather than lack of light. The immediate options I see (which aren't mutually exclusive) are as follows:

1) Increase the T5 output by putting replacing the 28W bulbs with 54W bulbs. This one is relatively straightforward - the one fixture already has a 54W bulb in it (although it's old enough that the output isn't where it should be). I've already paired that with a 54W actinic (vice the 28W). The downside of this is that I don't know how safe it is, given this is twice the power draw the unit was designed for. In fact, I've noticed that the clear acrylic cover over the 54W bulb is beginning to melt just over the joint where the glass meets the metal end cap. I also noticed that it's partially cracked there, so there may be something else going on that's responsible for the melting. Either way, that bulb's got to go, but it's unknown if that's a viable option overall.

2) Replace the actinic with another 10,000K bulb. That increases the white light from the two twin fixtures by 25% - my understanding is that while the actinic is pretty, it really does almost nothing in terms of photosynthesis. As I mentioned, for tomorrow I've already swapped out the 28W actinic for a 54W, but that's as much to see how the fixture deals with two 54W bulbs as it is for light output.

3) Increase the time. Right now, my timing cycle is 10am to 10pm, with the actinic/white combo on at 10, the twin white on at 12 and off at 8, and the actinic/white combo off at 10pm. I've put the 26W spot on the same timer as the actinic/white combo. Resetting the timer to have the full set on for a longer period would increase the effective light, although there's obviously a limit (and potentially diminishing returns) with this approach.

4) Add another 26W 6500K CF. While this is only a stop-gap, and isn't actually equivalent to 54W of 6500K (due to the diameter of the parabolic reflectors - I'm guessing effectively about 40W total), it's quick and easy.

5) Add yet another 26W6500K CF by removing enough of the black tank background to aim its reflector through the back of the tank onto the clam. It would be somewhat farther than from the top, but probably still not more than a foot from the focused bulb to the clam. This would also be obnoxious in the long run, but probably bearable for a little while.

I'm hoping some combination of these will do the job until we see which (if any) are viable and sufficient over the longer term, or a better solution can be worked out. However, assuming the existing fixtures can handle the additional power requirement, by doing all five of these we could easily triple or quadruple the light on the clam literally overnight. And most likely kill it from the shock in the process (not to mention what it might do to the rest of the zooanthellate population of the tank - probably the same).

So, with all these factors/alternatives in mind, how fast can we safely increase the light so as to return the clam to health without causing it and the rest of the tank undue shock and stress? Which steps should we add, and in which order? What do you think?
 
i'm not sure exactly what lights you have now but you need to add more light or the clam will whither away. crocea's are found in very shallow water and require the most light of all the tridacnid clams.
 
Well, two developments today. First, the clam decided to let go of the rock it was on all by itself - I'll try to post a picture tomorrow, but right now it's sitting on the sand on top of a small coral fragment we want it to attach to, which should then allow us to place it wherever we want (potentially a tiny bit higher in the tank - although per the previous discussion, there's not much room to climb from where it was). We're putting as much light on it as we can (one of the 26W parabolic reflector units is now shining through the front of the tank about 2" from the clam), but overall it's losing some light until it attaches and we can move it again.

Second, I found a couple half-price(?) specials at HelloLights.com for 48" T-5 HO fixtures - both a 4x54W and an 8x54W unit. So my question is, is the 4x unit enough light, or do I need the 8x unit? Does this answer apply wherever the clam ends up in the tank, or does it need to stay near the top, and is that answer the same for both units? In other words, which unit allows enough light for what kind of placement? - please answer for the 4x unit and for the 8x unit. It looks like the clam is getting lights for Christmas!:D Thanks again!
 
Those are standard NOt5's. The 4x54 will be fine but you would like the 8x better. You would still need to move it up on the rockwork for the 4x54.
 
Well, we put the clam back where it was, and now it's been about 2-3 weeks since I got the 8-bulb T-5HO unit. Here are a couple shots of the clam today:

194807lighted_clam.jpg


194807lighted_clam_2.jpg


As you can see, the mantle is still greatly extended, but there's much more color generally and blue specifically in the mantle. I think it's going to be all right now, but I wanted to close the loop on this thread. Thanks to everyone for all your help.
 
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