Overflows on an AGA 180?????

[stpauli914]

Just purchased a 180 AGA to upgrade from my 125. It is the dual mega overflows on the back wall. Each box is drilled for a 1" bulkhead and a 3/4" bulkhead(same as my 125). My question is, to get enough flow through this tank I am assuming I should run all 4 as drains and use over the back returns from my Blackfin pump. I would like to get some ideas of how this should be plumbed?? I'm sure someone out there in DIY land has done this before.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[scaryperson27]

You shouldn't have to run that much flow. I understand that most people think that the more flow the better. However, from what tanks I have seen, the better ones don't have an overdone return. they have just enough flow to push through the sump but not too much so that everything is going crazy.

I would just rather save the utility. That being said, I don't know if you have checked the bulkheads yet but most of the 180 gallon tanks that I have seen have both the bulkheads being the same size but one is made to fit 3/4" pipe, where as the other is made to fit 1".

If you do have a 3/4" bulkhead, I would make the drain pipe on the 3/4" side shorter (roughly 4-5") then the other. Literally just cut the pipe and put it in the bulkhead with a valve.

Use the 1" pipe as a durso type overflow. The reason for this is so that you can run the 3/4" pipe at full siphon and overflow the excess water through the other 1" durso.

As far as I remember, a 3/4" pipe can run ~700GPH at full siphon and a 1" can run ~600-700GPH. So this gives you roughly 2600-2800GPH.

You can do this with both overflows

This should provide a pretty silent setup.

I hope I am right, happy reefing

 

[jkienzpac]

to have a nice quiet system, best running a full siphon like the herbie method and bean animals siphon method. Just plumed my oceanic 215 this way. one drain per overflow is run as a full siphon with a gate valve and the second standpipe is the emergency. I left mine as a durso. then run the return up the back of the tank. will be nice and quiet and can be run at much higher flow than even running all 4 drains with duso's.
also agree, check your hole openings. my 3/4'' return was able to fit a 1'' bulkhead. Both holes were drilled the same size.

Jeff

 

[stpauli914]

Awesome info. I will check the bulkhead/drilled sizes when I take delivery of the tank.

Assuming I must run 3/4" on 2 of the drains....

So, you would recomend running Dursos on the (2) 1" drains, and run both the 3/4" drains non-durso(straight cut off pipe) 4-5" below the 1" Dursos(so they would be underwater at all times)? What is the purpose of adding ballvalves to the 2 3/4" drains? How do you know how much to close the valves??

If I can run all 4 drains as 1" should I do the same thing with 2 of them, or run all 4 as dursos??

Thanks in advance,
aaron

 

[scaryperson27]

The purpose is so that you can run most of the flow through those pipes, and run what little flow is extra, through the durso. This makes for a very quiet operation.

 

[stpauli914]

Got it. Thanks Scary....:bounce3:

 

[scaryperson27]

No problem

 

[uncleof6]

Awesome info. I will check the bulkhead/drilled sizes when I take delivery of the tank.

Assuming I must run 3/4" on 2 of the drains....

So, you would recomend running Dursos on the (2) 1" drains, and run both the 3/4" drains non-durso(straight cut off pipe) 4-5" below the 1" Dursos(so they would be underwater at all times)? What is the purpose of adding ballvalves to the 2 3/4" drains? How do you know how much to close the valves??

If I can run all 4 drains as 1" should I do the same thing with 2 of them, or run all 4 as dursos??

Thanks in advance,
aaron

This, to put it very simply is not the proper way to run a full siphon drain system. You do not run a full siphon drain without a DRY emergency. What is being recommended here is not the way either a Herbie or a BeanAnimal drain system works, is setup, or is intended to operate. The system as described here will not be failsafe, it will not be silent, (the flow rates being suggested are way too high for a 1" durso, just for starters.) Running two seperate siphon systems in two separate overflows is going to be a balancing nightmare, and will not function as intended.

Rule #1: Do not run a full siphon drain system, with out a DRY emergency.

Rule #2: First learn rule #1. Otherwise you are asking for a flood.

In order to learn the proper way to setup a high flow siphon system, read this thread.

The Herbie Drain system is a FULL siphon, and a DRY emergency. If you wish to have a self adjusting full siphon drain system, you use the system described in the thread I linked to above. All three standpipes must be used.

To effectively run a full siphon drain system on the 180 dual overflow tank discussed above, some modifications and/or deletion of the corner overflows is going to be called for. The overflows have insufficient linear length to flow in the 2000 gph range. For 2800 gph you need 42" of linear length WITHOUT TEETH.

IME, if you cannot modify the tank, and run the siphon systems as they should be run, you would be better off deleting the blackfin pump, using durso standpipes w/ current corner overflows, and using an eheim pump and keep the flow rate down ~600 gph, using 1.5" standpipes. Also IME, however, your tank is going to do better with the flow rate above 1800 gph, with a sinlge sufficiently sized overflow, using 1.5" standpipes, set up correctly. capable in excess of 3000 gph.

Regards,

Jim

 

[stpauli914]

So what would my flow rate be capable of with all 4 Standpipes being Dursos? Whether it be all 1" or (2) 1" and (2) 3/4"???

I imagine I can flow a LOT more than 600 GPH like this can't I??? Safety is not a concern since the backsiphoning would be eliminated due to the overflow boxes.

?????????

Aaron

 

[uncleof6]

A 1" durso will not flow more than (making a wild guess) < ~100 gph reliably. Without gurgling, bubbles galore, and the toilet flushing syndrome. To put it in perspective, a 1.5" durso will probably start giving you trouble at ~ 320 gph especially on a 1" bulkhead. As far as 1" dursos go, even Richard Durso says to not use a 1" durso, unless it is a very low flow system. (pico - nano range) which is not going to be suitable for your 180 gallon tank.

You have a Blackfin pump, not sure which one, but lets assume an output of 2800 gph at the outlets into the tank. Lets say you have 4 1.5" dursos (ignoring that there are two overflows, and balancing will be another problem-- and will address the "safety" thing in moment.)

Reliability wise, the dursos will handle 320 gph per standpipe. (arbitrary) so you have a reliable flow of 1240 gph. Higher than that, and you are going to have very turbulent flow in the standpipes, the air and water will mix (rather than remain separated) making for a lot of noise, and bubbles in your sump. Also, because the standpipes will not handle the higher flow rate well, the level in the overflow will rise--forcing the standpipe towards full siphon, which it can't be because there is air in the line, but the flow rate in the standpipe will increase above the rate entering the overflow, so the stand pipe will "flush," the level in the over flow will drop, and the cycle will start all over again. Changes in things as seemingly trivial as barometric pressure will also affect the flow rate and reliability of the standpipe.

So no, you are not going to be able to reliably flow even 600 gph through 4 1" durso standpipes. And you are going to be wasting better than half the flow from your pump, using 1.5" dursos. That is unless you are masochistic and enjoy the associated problems. The durso was a vast improvement over low flow, blank overflows, before some started realizing that the 3 - 5x was a carry over from undergravel filtered fish only tanks, and the limitations of the durso became painfully obvious-- as evidenced by the volume of "overflow flushing noisy bubbling problem" threads. I am not trying to be hard on scary or you, I just don't want to see you having to start one of those threads a week after you fire up the system: The solution is going to be dial the pump back, till the problem goes away, and even from where i sit, getting 4 dursos to work right-- is going to be a nightmare.

Can you run higher flow rates in this tank? Yes, you can, but you are going to need more linear overflow than you have, a siphon drain system (either herbie or bean) to do it-- safely. The safety issue is not a "power out drain down" issue, (that should be designed into your sump,) but rather an issue of a full siphon line plugging up, and your blackfin pumping 2800 gph (just a number) out of the tank and filling up your living room, till the sump is empty and your pump burns up, because you are not at home. IMO, 3/4" and 1" siphons are too easy to plug up, all it would take is a snail. Yes, I have pulled snails out of drain lines, and a lot of other junk that just naturally builds up over time.

Oh, BTW, anyone that runs a BK is ok in my book....

Regards,

Jim

 

[stpauli914]

Uncle,

I cry Uncle

What can I do??? I am not dead set on using the Blackfin, but I do want to have an SPS dominant tank and think that I would really like to have at least 6-8 times turnover in the display. This being said, is there a way to achieve 1200+/-GPH of turnover with the tank in it's stock drilling configuration? I am willing to cut out some teeth in the overflow boxes and use gutter guard as a safety to get more spillover, but is there a way to flow that amount with (4) 1" bulkheads??????

Thanks for all the info, and BK is the only way to skim

Aaron

 

[stpauli914]

One other note to mention, my plumbing goes through the wall into the garage where my sump is. That being said, noise from the sump itself is no concern to me as long as the display is quiet. For flow, I also have a pair of Tunze 6105's in the diplay.

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[uncleof6]

Yeah, you can get to ~2000 gph as the tank is currently drilled (maybe more, maybe a little less depending on pipe size.) Personally I would like to see it above 1800 gph. (approx 10x your running system volume.) But you would need 27" of linear overflow to get there. @ 1200 gph you are going to want 18" of overflow, (without teeth.)

So to hit the 1200 gph range, a single 1" full siphon, and a single 1" dry emergency, with capacity increasing with pipe size increase. The only issues being what to do with the other overflow, and getting the linear length you need from the overflow you use. With sufficient overflow length, the tank will be silent.

Jim

 

[stpauli914]

Uncle,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Please try and let me know what you would do with each of the 4 overflows and a little picture would be great(if you have the time). You can PM me or feel free to email me if it helps:

stuttgart914@hotmail.com

I am not taking delivery of the tank for another week so I have time to plumb as necessary.

Thanks again,
Aaron

 

[jkienzpac]

This, to put it very simply is not the proper way to run a full siphon drain system. You do not run a full siphon drain without a DRY emergency. What is being recommended here is not the way either a Herbie or a BeanAnimal drain system works, is setup, or is intended to operate. The system as described here will not be failsafe, it will not be silent, (the flow rates being suggested are way too high for a 1" durso, just for starters.) Running two seperate siphon systems in two separate overflows is going to be a balancing nightmare, and will not function as intended.

Rule #1: Do not run a full siphon drain system, with out a DRY emergency.

Rule #2: First learn rule #1. Otherwise you are asking for a flood.

In order to learn the proper way to setup a high flow siphon system, read this thread.

The Herbie Drain system is a FULL siphon, and a DRY emergency. If you wish to have a self adjusting full siphon drain system, you use the system described in the thread I linked to above. All three standpipes must be used.

To effectively run a full siphon drain system on the 180 dual overflow tank discussed above, some modifications and/or deletion of the corner overflows is going to be called for. The overflows have insufficient linear length to flow in the 2000 gph range. For 2800 gph you need 42" of linear length WITHOUT TEETH.

IME, if you cannot modify the tank, and run the siphon systems as they should be run, you would be better off deleting the blackfin pump, using durso standpipes w/ current corner overflows, and using an eheim pump and keep the flow rate down ~600 gph, using 1.5" standpipes. Also IME, however, your tank is going to do better with the flow rate above 1800 gph, with a sinlge sufficiently sized overflow, using 1.5" standpipes, set up correctly. capable in excess of 3000 gph.

Regards,

Jim

jim,



I have the same set up with 2 overflows and 2 separate siphons and it runs fine. per overflow i have one full siphon and one emergency drain using a dart pump. each are one inch, it runs fine and this was per your recommendations. have no balance issues and it is extremely quiet.

the overflows themselves can handle full throttle of the pump and the 2 dursos running as emergency can handle full flow even with both siphons turned off. (does get a bit close but works)

jeff

 

[uncleof6]

jim,



I have the same set up with 2 overflows and 2 separate siphons and it runs fine. per overflow i have one full siphon and one emergency drain using a dart pump. each are one inch, it runs fine and this was per your recommendations. have no balance issues and it is extremely quiet.

the overflows themselves can handle full throttle of the pump and the 2 dursos running as emergency can handle full flow even with both siphons turned off. (does get a bit close but works)

jeff

Sometimes I confuse myself, get going, and forget what I am really talking about. Sometimes in the middle of a paragraph. I suppose I need to do a line by line debate with myself, and straighten this out. However, I don't think that I would recommend a DURSO, as an emergency drain as opposed to a DRY emergency.

Jim

 

[jkienzpac]

jim

i may be confused as well, not to steal the thread, but could you explain the difference between the two. that is a durso vs dry emergency. read beans, herbie thread many times and thought i got it straight, but maybe not. if the durso is above the normal water line can't that act as an emergency drain?

thanks,

jeff

 

[uncleof6]

Siphon Standpipe: A sealed standpipe, that allows no air to enter.
Durso Standpipe: Has an air inlet in the top of the standpipe.
Open Channel Standpipe: Synonymous with Druso, but with a dynamic function, (as used in BeanAnimals system,) has low flow in it at ALL times.
Dry Emergency: A siphon standpipe, that has no flow in it under normal circumstances.

The herbie system, does not have an open channel. It consists of a siphon standpipe, and a dry emergency. When the dry emergency kicks in, due to a blockage of the main siphon, it should be capable of handling the full flow of the siphon standpipe. Ideally, both standpipes are constructed identically, the only difference being that the inlet to the emergency is above the normal water line. The emergency can be just a straight pipe, but when it kicks in, it will suck air and behave similarly to a durso.

BeanAnimal introduced the use of an open channel (~durso~) with the siphon and dry emergency, for self adjustment of the system, and a 2nd level failsafe-- that kicks in when the tubing (connected to the JG fitting on top of the open channel) becomes submerged (blocking the air input to the open channel making it a siphon), due to blockage of the main siphon and the dry emergency. The open channel has a low flow through it, under normal circumstances, this low flow, makes the system self adjusting, as it CAN go higher as needed.

To recap: A dry emergency, is a siphon standpipe, that does not have flow in it under normal circumstances. A durso or "open channel" has an air inlet in the top of the standpipe, and cannot become a full siphon, (without the "trigger" mechanism mentioned above,) and will "not" flow as much as the siphon, because it already has a flow rate through it-- Unless the "trigger" is pulled.

I am not sure where the notion of using a Durso, for an emergency, originated, I suspect it was an attempt to hybrid Bean's design, and call it a Herbie. BeanAnimal was pretty clear that all three standpipes be used (siphon, open channel, dry emergency,) and I agree. Herbie was very clear (with less documentation) that his system use a siphon and a dry emergency.

It is not safe to run a siphon without a dry emergency in the mix. If you want an open channel in the mix use three standpipes.

On the overflow issue: IME, IMO, I don't like dual systems running in separte corner overflows. For one, most are too small for the flow rates, and water piles too high to get good SURFACE skimming. Perhaps "balancing nightmare" is a bit strong, but getting DUSRSO'S to balance will be. Siphons, a lot easier. A single overflow, of sufficient length, running a single siphon system, is going to be simpler, and more efficient-- whether it is ultimately a Herbie or a Bean. With a little acrylic work with this tank, either can be done.

Jim

 

[jkienzpac]

Jim,

thanks much for your reply, I think the terminology gets mixed in some of the threads I read, and I myself will misuse them.

I would like to explain my set up more to you and appreciate your inputs/comments as in the past.

not to steal the thread but know several people with dual overflow asked about this as well.

1st my tank is an oceanic 215 with dual overflows, 2 1'' bulkheads in each. I run a dart at 4'head.

In regards to the overflows...at full return flow( allowing full siphon drainage) the overflows themselves can handle the flow rate on a tank my size, but does push the DT water fairly high ( just under the center brace) so would likely throttle back the return pump a bit even with my set up. I will be diverting some flow to my fuge as well. Agree, if the overflow was any smaller that alone would be the rate limiting factor for water flow. I do wish they handle a bit more but don't want to do major remodeling of the tank.

My bulkheads are 1'', all plumbing after is 1.5''. the standard durso that came with the tank are 1.25'' I think.
I am running a full siphon per overflow with gate valve downstream to throttle it down(bought some nice spears , think you recommended)

I left the original dursos that came with the tank in place. One per overflow.
these are higher than the full siphon.

with normal operation, once both siphons are set the tank runs at a stable level without fluctuating. it really doesn't need to self level. And is nice and quiet.
The 2 dursos remain dry with normal operation, hence I consider them the dry emergency at this point. and it's kinda running like the herbie.

When I close the full siphon gate valves a bit I'll now start to get some water flow through the dursos. This can now be (i think) called an open channel stand pipe. they still remain overall low flow so stay quit at this point. now this is somewhat like the bean but without the dry emergency.

However, since there are 2 dursos in this system, it can handle more volume if needed. There is 4 drain pipes compared to 3.

So when I close both full siphons the two dursos are now accepting full flow acting as the emergency channel.

They alone can handle full flow but obviously are quite noisy at this time, but also act as an alert to a problem.

even with this set up i don't plan on running the dart at full throttle. again, some water will run through the fuge and I may throttle back some more for safety.( Reeflow claims this does not harm their pumps and actually will lower power consumption).

overall my main concern is quit. Even with this system I am considering a DT float valve to cut off pump.(just need to figure out how to do) but overall seems pretty safe as far as flooding.

So far my initial tests have gone well, but have not been running for a long time.

So this is my modified herbie/bean method using dual overfows, 2 full siphons and 2 "dursos". I have read others doing this without issues, and seems to work great for people with "reef ready" tanks.

what do you think?

Jeff

 

[jkienzpac]

anyone...