small alien
The fungus is among us.
Very interesting thought.
I know that Matt Pederson kept his batch alive for a while. Does anyone know if they survived "long term"?
Oxymonacanthus longirostris pair enters a mixed reef environment
- Thread starter small alien
- Start date
Very interesting thought.
I know that Matt Pederson kept his batch alive for a while. Does anyone know if they survived "long term"?
small alien
The fungus is among us.
What would we speculate as an average lifespan (barring predation) in the wild?
small alien
The fungus is among us.
As far as my pair goes, nothing new to report really.
Along with my banded pipe, the files are the first fish "up" in the morning. I see them swimming around if there's even a hint of daylight.
They really pay VERY LITTLE attention to the other fish in the tank. Just notice them if they need to swim around them. They are definitely in their own filefish world. They pay a lot of attention to each other though. They are probably my most behaviorly (in contrast to location) involved pair. All my pairs hang out together or follow each other around the tank. But the files really communicate with each other. Tons of very purposeful swimming movements, little chases etc. I had stated previously that, because she is larger, the female did more of the chasing. That has shifted and now the male, though still smaller, is the chaser for the most part. These are tiny little chases of a couple inches or so and the chasee tends to bend around in a little, darting circle as an evasive maneuver. Often flaring her tail seemingly to expose the ocellus which the male darts at with it's mighty yellow snout.
Still feeding very well on all foods previously listed. Again, so interesting to see my other fish learning to eat more prepared foods from the files!!! How weird is that really if you think about it? :hmm4: "Obligate coralivores" teaching a wide range of captive reef fish to eat Formula 1 Gel, Reef Flakes and NLS Pellets. It's just simply ridiculous to me and definitely one of the most amazing things I've witnessed in my tanks. They're trying mysis more but it's hard for them to take bites.
Cheers.
Along with my banded pipe, the files are the first fish "up" in the morning. I see them swimming around if there's even a hint of daylight.
They really pay VERY LITTLE attention to the other fish in the tank. Just notice them if they need to swim around them. They are definitely in their own filefish world. They pay a lot of attention to each other though. They are probably my most behaviorly (in contrast to location) involved pair. All my pairs hang out together or follow each other around the tank. But the files really communicate with each other. Tons of very purposeful swimming movements, little chases etc. I had stated previously that, because she is larger, the female did more of the chasing. That has shifted and now the male, though still smaller, is the chaser for the most part. These are tiny little chases of a couple inches or so and the chasee tends to bend around in a little, darting circle as an evasive maneuver. Often flaring her tail seemingly to expose the ocellus which the male darts at with it's mighty yellow snout.
Still feeding very well on all foods previously listed. Again, so interesting to see my other fish learning to eat more prepared foods from the files!!! How weird is that really if you think about it? :hmm4: "Obligate coralivores" teaching a wide range of captive reef fish to eat Formula 1 Gel, Reef Flakes and NLS Pellets. It's just simply ridiculous to me and definitely one of the most amazing things I've witnessed in my tanks. They're trying mysis more but it's hard for them to take bites.
Cheers.
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flying_dutchman
New member
He got them breeding and as far as I know their still alive today. I recommend reading his thread on MOFIB.
Also his article in CORAL is worth reading (March/April 2009)
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Thanks!
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Amazing. I can't believe I've not read the thread from the beginning before. I don't know if this is okay. If it's not, mods please delete. This is a quote of Matt from the thread when the female has died and he has just gotten the male to start eating from sps frags...
"you can't tell the difference between the unmolested frag and the one that filefish went to town on...
Seriously, if a frag can be 'munched on' for 24 hours yet have all it's polyps and pretty much appear to be healthy, then what is the filefish actually eating / gaining from the coral? Obviously, at least to me, the filefish did not consume polyps, unless the coral healed itself just that fast???
This is very suspect in my book...makes me wonder if the filefish is not actually eating the tissue of the SPS corals, but perhaps feeding on coral parasites or the "polysaccharide mucus" that corals give off (afterall, polysaccharides are complex carbohydrates, so potentially plenty of energy stored there, right?)??? I wonder where the "proof is" that these are actually "coral feeders" in the sense we all think of them as being??? A little part of me is doubting the "coralivorous" nature of these fish after seeing it fail to eat the polyps that it was constantly nipping at.
I returned the Digitata frag to the tank now for another "feeding session"...the filefish took to it within minutes!"
- Matt Pederson on MOFIB website.
"you can't tell the difference between the unmolested frag and the one that filefish went to town on...
Seriously, if a frag can be 'munched on' for 24 hours yet have all it's polyps and pretty much appear to be healthy, then what is the filefish actually eating / gaining from the coral? Obviously, at least to me, the filefish did not consume polyps, unless the coral healed itself just that fast???
This is very suspect in my book...makes me wonder if the filefish is not actually eating the tissue of the SPS corals, but perhaps feeding on coral parasites or the "polysaccharide mucus" that corals give off (afterall, polysaccharides are complex carbohydrates, so potentially plenty of energy stored there, right?)??? I wonder where the "proof is" that these are actually "coral feeders" in the sense we all think of them as being??? A little part of me is doubting the "coralivorous" nature of these fish after seeing it fail to eat the polyps that it was constantly nipping at.
I returned the Digitata frag to the tank now for another "feeding session"...the filefish took to it within minutes!"
- Matt Pederson on MOFIB website.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Yes. Okay. What do you suppose they are doing in Matt's account?
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I dont know, but I am not going to discount a published scientific report. And furthermore, I have seen these fish, when I worked in a LFS, systematic excise Acro polyps, so I KNOW, as a witness with my own eyes, that they do consume them.
Overall, this is exactly what I feared in a topic like this. These fish, which are scientifically known to be obligate corallivores in the wild are now being questioned that they even eat corals. That is unthinkably obtuse, IMO, in the hopes that we can rationalize these fish in our care. Im not trying to be aggressive or combative with you, I feel you have been very open and forthcoming, but I cant even begin to understand where a statement like that comes from.
As Ive said all along, I dont know if these fish can survive on our substitute fare. I just know that no one knows. Taking this pathway where we start blatantly disregarding scientific observation is a route I cant participate in.
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Restrain the hatred! I really am not meaning to doubt the stomach contents report one bit and I don't think anyone else is either.
As far as what I'm asking, I'm just asking, what do you suppose is going on when one of these fish nibbles an sps frag all day long, and then, when the frag is taken away from the fish, the polyps extend and appear fine? I'm not posing it in opposition to the stomach contents analysis and your observations in the fish store. Not at all. I'm asking it in addition to those accounts.
Please do hang in there with this thread and know that the truth is all that is being sought, not some justification for keeping a fish that would be better left in the ocean. Your input is very valuable and appreciated.
Cheers.
I really am not meaning to doubt the stomach contents report one bit and I don't think anyone else is either.As far as what I'm asking, I'm just asking, what do you suppose is going on when one of these fish nibbles an sps frag all day long, and then, when the frag is taken away from the fish, the polyps extend and appear fine? I'm not posing it in opposition to the stomach contents analysis and your observations in the fish store. Not at all. I'm asking it in addition to those accounts.
Please do hang in there with this thread and know that the truth is all that is being sought, not some justification for keeping a fish that would be better left in the ocean. Your input is very valuable and appreciated.
Cheers.
If I understand it properly, jmaneyapanda's view is that we simply don't know yet whether a prepared foods diet "works" with OSFF, because four months (or a year, or some similarly short time) is insufficient to determine if they will indeed thrive on such foods. Fair enough. But I also sense from the tone of his posts that he disapproves of the effort ("rationalizing these fish in our care," et al.). (But jmaneyapanda, let me know if I'm wrong to impute that view to you.)
But whether he has that view or not, surely others do. But central to my feeling about aquarists' "experimenting" with them as we are is their relative abundance or scarcity in the wild. It seems to me that fact - whatever it is - is crucial to the discussion. That is, if the reefs are just teeming with them, well then, why not see if they are able to survive (and hopefully, thrive) long-term when weaned on to prepared food diets. Does anyone happen to know what the facts are in terms of the quantity of OSFF on the reefs?
But whether he has that view or not, surely others do. But central to my feeling about aquarists' "experimenting" with them as we are is their relative abundance or scarcity in the wild. It seems to me that fact - whatever it is - is crucial to the discussion. That is, if the reefs are just teeming with them, well then, why not see if they are able to survive (and hopefully, thrive) long-term when weaned on to prepared food diets. Does anyone happen to know what the facts are in terms of the quantity of OSFF on the reefs?
twiggyb
Active member
I keep this fish because it is beautiful and I am prepared to feed it live corals in order to keep it thriving. Simple as that. This is a hobby. Not PETA. As most responsible hobbyists agree to try and protect the environment by propagating corals and breeding fishes this is still nothing more than a hobby at the moment,IMO, and it is up to the hobbyist to take care of the animals that we put in our tanks by any means. That's just my humble opinion though which most will probably not agree with me.
Big E
Premium Member
I never said 4 months was any kind of success of longevity. It is a success in getting these fish to feed on various foods. Most die in the first month because they refuse to feed. Once past that, only time will tell.
There may very well be many of the same nutrients in other foods at the level of vitamins, amino acids, ect. that the fish require to be sustained long term. I referenced the study you posted on the auripes & lunula. The auripes doesn't get anenomes which constitue 76% or coral polyps 12%= 88% of what this fish "needs", yet they can live for years in captivity on what you call beer & potato chips.
Your point seems to be it can't be done & it's cruel.
I prefer not to scoff at the short term success that has been achieved with these file fish or Umm fish's plebius. It's the first step & overcoming a major hurdle. I'm looking forward to see how this progresses.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
I dont disapprove of the effort at all. I disapprove of deeming of success on these methods without consideration that there are factors at play which we dont understand, which can very well NOT indicate success. I only mentioned the "rationalizing the fish in our care" as a situation which I perceived to occur, where a documented and readily observable scientific observation was being questioned, in regards to arguing its innecessity in captive situations. This may not have been the situation, but thats what my reference was to. As for their abundance in the wild, I dont know.
I agree with your statement, except I dont understand what the PETA reference is about. I feel this species does, in fact, need to be consuming coral polyps to thrive appropriately, until we cant determine why they only consume these items in the wild, and how we can replicate this in captivity artificially. Thats just my humble opinion.
As Ive state repeatedly, my point is not that "it cant be done". My point is we dont know. And my questions or concerns for dietary specificity go unanswered (because they can't be answered at this time).
Regarding fish food consumption, I dont think you are understanding my point. Animals have gastrointestinal tracts which are specialized to digest the foods that they are ingested. Typically this involves physiological adaptations and specializations, and microflora and fauna within the GI tract. This occurs within ALL animals. So, in these cases the obligate consumers have adapted a digestive system specialized to digest and assimilate specific items.
Let me make some comparison and analogies- tangs in captivity- why do we feed nori? Why do these fish, by all accounts, fare better when fed algaes? As another analogy- koalas in captivity. These animals are obligate consumers, too. And they are maintained by many public institutions around the world. Yet, with this specialized diet, great costs and lengths gone to in order to feed their natural diet. Why?
uhuru
New member
From a behavioral standpoint, I don't think we are being inhumane by not giving them acros to munch on, at least not regularly. They do seem perfectly fine picking at whatever else they want. They do not seem stressed. They do not seem to suffer from the problems of chronic stress. From a nutritional standpoint, we have to know exactly what is in coral polyps, and what is in the symbionts within the coral tissue. What is in coral mucus? I don't think the diet we are giving them now is equivalent to beer and chips for humans. A diet of beer and chips would destroy your health far quicker than you think. IMO, we are still dealing with ratios of macro and micro nutrients when it comes down to it. A good quality pellet feed ensures that the ratios are correct for most fishes. Have these fish evolved in such a way that they require different ratios? Possibly. Is it a drastically different ratio? Probably not. Is it possible that there is some mystery amino acid that only acro polyps can provide? Sure, but I think we would be seeing problems much sooner and breeding then raising the progeny without this amino acid would be near impossible if not impossible.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Then why dont these fish eat other things in the wild?
uhuru
New member
jmaneyapanda you bring up a good point. I'm actually surprised that researchers that have examined the gastric contents of these fish haven't commented on their digestive tract morphology. Is it unique? Tangs have unique digestive tracts compared to carnivorous fishes. Koalas have unique digestive tracts as well.
uhuru
New member
I don't know. Animal behavior is an extremely complex field. You may be right that the behavior is there because it fulfills a nutritional requirement. If that is the case, we should start to see signs of malnutrition in all OSFF's that have been adapted to commercial diets over the next months to years.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Like, Ive said, I dont know that it is going to cause a problem. I may not. But, if I had to guess, its just hard to fathom that an aquarium feed has the "magic ingredient" to fulfill this fishes needs outside of coral polyps. And the ocean doesnt have it, so the fish needs to eat coral polyps. That just doesnt add up for me.
Also, FWIW, while interesting, I dont think a behavior that is there because it fulfills a nutritional requirement is the key. "Why", although curious, isnt the issue to me. I think the issue is that the behavior exists after millions of years of evolution. That is hard to undo.
