ArtemisGoldfish
New member
Setting up an RODI takes around 10 minutes. Pick up one of the kits from BRS. It's well worth it and you can store the water for cooking, pets, etc.
Pale, Brown and Sad - what's my gameplan?
- Thread starter timdanger
- Start date
i'm looking at the Spectrapure CSP-DI90
i was under the impression you weren't supposed to use RODI water for drinking?
ChicagoReefOne
New member
Good to see your back on the forum, less good to hear that everything is still running downhill.
I gotta side with everyone else here, you need to get a RODI machine. That way you can control that aspect of your reef.
I gotta side with everyone else here, you need to get a RODI machine. That way you can control that aspect of your reef.
westreef
Lost as usual
I see you are going to remove the DSB. Just be careful. Few months ago, I removed my 11 years old SB and causing my tank crashed. My GHA and cyano went from bad to worst. My water parameters became unstable. Maybe the junk in the SB got stirred up in the water column and lingered for a long time. I did many WC but still it took me 5 months to start getting my tank back under control. if I have to do that again, I would ask the experts here how to remove the SB properly. For me I still don't know how to do it right. Just be careful. SB does trap a lot of garbage there.
so, i spent about 6 hours on the tank on saturday. some details accomplishments:
First, a stray voltage breakdown (using Fluke multimeter, 120AC, black probe grounded to outlet, red probe in display tank):
1) 12 volts from my maxijet 1200 powering my media reactor. this pump is not even 6 months old.
2) about 3-4 volts each from: 100w visitherm stealth heater, vortech mp10 (did not expect that), tunze 1073.020 return pump, JBJ ATO (?!), tunze 6025. i think some of this may just be the result of backfeeding.
3) ~12v from one of my 3 daisy-chained power strips. i replaced the faulty power strip (but neglected to test for voltage afterward -- oops).
4) no voltage from my light fixture or my skimmer pump. go figure.
5) about 2v with nothing powered on.
Now, the rest of my accomplishments/feats of daring:
1) purchased/installed a titanium ground probe. suction-cupped the probe to the overflow box in the back of my display tank. i had mixed feelings about where to put it; obviously there is a continuous circuit of water between the display and sump while the return pump is operating, but that isn't the case when the return pump is off. my decision came down to the fact that i figured, in times when the return pump is not operating (and therefore there are 3 separate bodies of water to ground: the display, the overflow and the sump) i would have my hands in the display more often than i'd have them in the sump or the overflow, and most of the living organisms are in the display. after installing the probe, obviously my tank is reading 0 volts now. i believe i'll be replacing the maxijet, but i don't think there's much i can do about the other voltage.
2) switched my multi-outlet shockbuster portable gfci for a single-outlet portable gfci so that i could install the grounding probe could fit in the same wall outlet (the multi-outlet gfci covers up both outlets on the wall outlet). on a related note, does anyone want to buy a multi-outlet shockbuster portable gfci?
at the same time, i switched the order of my power strips so that the strip with the "tight space-friendly" plug went in first. this makes life so much easier. after replacing and rearranging the power strips, i foolishly neglected to re-check the voltages without the grounding probe to see if that helped.
3) removed/disassembled the vortech, return pump and tunze 6025 and soaked them in ~10:1 solution of water:muriatic acid for 20 minutes. this was a lot of trouble, but after the soak/rinse in tap water/once-over with a toothbrush, they came out looking like new. from removal to reinstall, the process took at least an hour. i should've cleaned my skimmer pump at the same time, but i forgot about it. this became an issue later!
4) I modded my tunze 6025 by using a dremel to cut off the flow restricter on the front piece of plastic. this mod is supposed to give it 6045 flow. seemed to go fine, and the flow is definitely better. when reinstalling the tunze 6025, i repositioned it to be on the same side of the tank as the vortech, about 8" below it, and angled up. the goal is to create more of a gyre flow in the tank than previously existed. sadly, i ended up snapping one of the pins off the magnet that the 6025 mounts on, so i would characterize it's hold on the magnet as "tenuous, but ok." i did manage to knock it off one time, and it ended up facing down at the sand bed for a second and blowing sand all over the place. ugh/oops.
5) rinsed dual media reactor and replaced all media (gearing up for the next few items)
6) REMOVED live rock rubble from sump.
7) REMOVED DSB! lowered the water level so that it was below the baffles of the fuge chamber (to keep organics/hydrogen sulfide out of the water -- sulfur/gas smell was intense the further down i went, by the way), scooped out most of the sand by hand, and shop-vacced out the rest. i did notice that , sitting empty, the left and right chambers were leaking into the middle chamber very very slightly (probably about 1ml/minute). i had a small ball of chaeto and two decent-sized pieces of LR on top of the DSB that i put back in the fuge chamber. i'm not sure what i should be doing with those at this point, but i don't have anything else to put in there.
7) REMOVED 1 big piece of rock from left tier of the display tank. this was definitely the right thing to do. i also tried removing the bottom rock from the right tier of the display, but things really just weren't fitting together right and the top rock on the right tier couldn't really support itself, given where corals were growing on it, so i ended up leaving it in. i don't love what it looks like right now (.. a pile of rocks), but maybe i just need to get used to it. i'm almost nervous to move it because it's stable as it's sitting right now, and with so much else going on in the tank (biologically, aesthetically, electrically...), i'd rather not tempt fate more than i have to.
8) in the process of removing/replacing/redecorating rocks, i managed to do some damage. i fragged a small edge off my pink/orange cap (i couldn't even find anything that had broken off, but there is a spot that looks broken), and i also snapped off a ~1" branch from my red planet. i did save the red planet frag and mounted it right next to the existing colony. should be fine. i also purposefully fragged off a little piece of purple digitata that was getting too close to my ATL Pink Flamingo Acropora Selago. after all this, there was some SERIOUS sliming from just about every coral in the tank (even the caps were sliming). tried to keep them "slime free" with a turkey baster, off and on. they are mostly clear now, though the green slimer and blue stag are still at it a little bit. no tissue loss, though.
9) while i had stopped in at the LFS (Atlantis) to buy the ground probe, they gave me a big frag of browned-out blue tort for free -- i guess a customer had returned a big colony that their high-alk tank water was destroying, so they were fragging up the healthy pieces that were left to see if they could salvage it and asked me if i wanted one. Those guys are the best. so, i treated/mounted that frag. no tissue loss on it at all, yet, so i'm holding out hope!
10) after all that, water change.
11) when turning my skimmer back on after the water change, the impeller on the pump wasn't spinning. big trouble based on everything else that was going on! so, i ended up having to take it out of the tank, cleaning it by hand/toothbrush -- but, the impeller still was sticking. i found that i could "kick start" it by sticking my finger down in it and sort of rolling the impeller clockwise with my finger to start it. the problem was that it would start, but then if you turned it off, it still wouldn't start back up on its own (though you could still "kick start" it again). i finally ended up unscrewing the nozzle that plugs into the skimmer body and just messing around with it for a few minutes, and i guess that broke it free of whatever was keeping it from spinning (again, probably a deposit of some kind) because it started going on its own. then, it was able to start up on its own through multiple power-offs/power-ons. so, i guess it's fixed, though i'll be keeping an eye on it.
12) tried to do some parameter testing after all this. salinity was a bit higher than usual (1.027 instead of 1.025-6), but i'm not super worried about that. Alk was 7.0, Ca was 400, but i expected both of those to be a bit low based on my revised dosing schedule/calculating. i'm now dosing 15ml/day of both Ca/Alk. Interesting sidenote, my Elos Ca test kit reagent A started leaking out of the side of the dropper. got all over my hands and the bottle (it took the ink right off the bottle). no burns or anything, but i will absolutely be contacting Elos about this, because i doubt i'll be able to continue using it. but, no burns or anything from it, so i'm ok.
13) added a little bit of API Stress Coat to cut any ammonia that might have been freed from messing around with the rocks, removing filtration, blowing sand around, etc.
quite a night. as of this morning, the inhabitants all look fine based on visual inspection, other than the remaining sliming.
First, a stray voltage breakdown (using Fluke multimeter, 120AC, black probe grounded to outlet, red probe in display tank):
1) 12 volts from my maxijet 1200 powering my media reactor. this pump is not even 6 months old.
2) about 3-4 volts each from: 100w visitherm stealth heater, vortech mp10 (did not expect that), tunze 1073.020 return pump, JBJ ATO (?!), tunze 6025. i think some of this may just be the result of backfeeding.
3) ~12v from one of my 3 daisy-chained power strips. i replaced the faulty power strip (but neglected to test for voltage afterward -- oops).
4) no voltage from my light fixture or my skimmer pump. go figure.
5) about 2v with nothing powered on.
Now, the rest of my accomplishments/feats of daring:
1) purchased/installed a titanium ground probe. suction-cupped the probe to the overflow box in the back of my display tank. i had mixed feelings about where to put it; obviously there is a continuous circuit of water between the display and sump while the return pump is operating, but that isn't the case when the return pump is off. my decision came down to the fact that i figured, in times when the return pump is not operating (and therefore there are 3 separate bodies of water to ground: the display, the overflow and the sump) i would have my hands in the display more often than i'd have them in the sump or the overflow, and most of the living organisms are in the display. after installing the probe, obviously my tank is reading 0 volts now. i believe i'll be replacing the maxijet, but i don't think there's much i can do about the other voltage.
2) switched my multi-outlet shockbuster portable gfci for a single-outlet portable gfci so that i could install the grounding probe could fit in the same wall outlet (the multi-outlet gfci covers up both outlets on the wall outlet). on a related note, does anyone want to buy a multi-outlet shockbuster portable gfci?
at the same time, i switched the order of my power strips so that the strip with the "tight space-friendly" plug went in first. this makes life so much easier. after replacing and rearranging the power strips, i foolishly neglected to re-check the voltages without the grounding probe to see if that helped.3) removed/disassembled the vortech, return pump and tunze 6025 and soaked them in ~10:1 solution of water:muriatic acid for 20 minutes. this was a lot of trouble, but after the soak/rinse in tap water/once-over with a toothbrush, they came out looking like new. from removal to reinstall, the process took at least an hour. i should've cleaned my skimmer pump at the same time, but i forgot about it. this became an issue later!
4) I modded my tunze 6025 by using a dremel to cut off the flow restricter on the front piece of plastic. this mod is supposed to give it 6045 flow. seemed to go fine, and the flow is definitely better. when reinstalling the tunze 6025, i repositioned it to be on the same side of the tank as the vortech, about 8" below it, and angled up. the goal is to create more of a gyre flow in the tank than previously existed. sadly, i ended up snapping one of the pins off the magnet that the 6025 mounts on, so i would characterize it's hold on the magnet as "tenuous, but ok." i did manage to knock it off one time, and it ended up facing down at the sand bed for a second and blowing sand all over the place. ugh/oops.
5) rinsed dual media reactor and replaced all media (gearing up for the next few items)
6) REMOVED live rock rubble from sump.
7) REMOVED DSB! lowered the water level so that it was below the baffles of the fuge chamber (to keep organics/hydrogen sulfide out of the water -- sulfur/gas smell was intense the further down i went, by the way), scooped out most of the sand by hand, and shop-vacced out the rest. i did notice that , sitting empty, the left and right chambers were leaking into the middle chamber very very slightly (probably about 1ml/minute). i had a small ball of chaeto and two decent-sized pieces of LR on top of the DSB that i put back in the fuge chamber. i'm not sure what i should be doing with those at this point, but i don't have anything else to put in there.
7) REMOVED 1 big piece of rock from left tier of the display tank. this was definitely the right thing to do. i also tried removing the bottom rock from the right tier of the display, but things really just weren't fitting together right and the top rock on the right tier couldn't really support itself, given where corals were growing on it, so i ended up leaving it in. i don't love what it looks like right now (.. a pile of rocks), but maybe i just need to get used to it. i'm almost nervous to move it because it's stable as it's sitting right now, and with so much else going on in the tank (biologically, aesthetically, electrically...), i'd rather not tempt fate more than i have to.
8) in the process of removing/replacing/redecorating rocks, i managed to do some damage. i fragged a small edge off my pink/orange cap (i couldn't even find anything that had broken off, but there is a spot that looks broken), and i also snapped off a ~1" branch from my red planet. i did save the red planet frag and mounted it right next to the existing colony. should be fine. i also purposefully fragged off a little piece of purple digitata that was getting too close to my ATL Pink Flamingo Acropora Selago. after all this, there was some SERIOUS sliming from just about every coral in the tank (even the caps were sliming). tried to keep them "slime free" with a turkey baster, off and on. they are mostly clear now, though the green slimer and blue stag are still at it a little bit. no tissue loss, though.
9) while i had stopped in at the LFS (Atlantis) to buy the ground probe, they gave me a big frag of browned-out blue tort for free -- i guess a customer had returned a big colony that their high-alk tank water was destroying, so they were fragging up the healthy pieces that were left to see if they could salvage it and asked me if i wanted one. Those guys are the best.
so, i treated/mounted that frag. no tissue loss on it at all, yet, so i'm holding out hope!10) after all that, water change.
11) when turning my skimmer back on after the water change, the impeller on the pump wasn't spinning. big trouble based on everything else that was going on! so, i ended up having to take it out of the tank, cleaning it by hand/toothbrush -- but, the impeller still was sticking. i found that i could "kick start" it by sticking my finger down in it and sort of rolling the impeller clockwise with my finger to start it. the problem was that it would start, but then if you turned it off, it still wouldn't start back up on its own (though you could still "kick start" it again). i finally ended up unscrewing the nozzle that plugs into the skimmer body and just messing around with it for a few minutes, and i guess that broke it free of whatever was keeping it from spinning (again, probably a deposit of some kind) because it started going on its own. then, it was able to start up on its own through multiple power-offs/power-ons. so, i guess it's fixed, though i'll be keeping an eye on it.
12) tried to do some parameter testing after all this. salinity was a bit higher than usual (1.027 instead of 1.025-6), but i'm not super worried about that. Alk was 7.0, Ca was 400, but i expected both of those to be a bit low based on my revised dosing schedule/calculating. i'm now dosing 15ml/day of both Ca/Alk. Interesting sidenote, my Elos Ca test kit reagent A started leaking out of the side of the dropper. got all over my hands and the bottle (it took the ink right off the bottle). no burns or anything, but i will absolutely be contacting Elos about this, because i doubt i'll be able to continue using it. but, no burns or anything from it, so i'm ok.
13) added a little bit of API Stress Coat to cut any ammonia that might have been freed from messing around with the rocks, removing filtration, blowing sand around, etc.
quite a night. as of this morning, the inhabitants all look fine based on visual inspection, other than the remaining sliming.
ChicagoReefOne
New member
Wow you put in some work and it seems like your changes should have a positive effect over the long term. In the short term I'd watch my NO3 levels, I did some moving of rocks, kicked up some sand and had a NO3 spike.
Good luck and I hope it works well, keep us apprised.
Good luck and I hope it works well, keep us apprised.
i've done another 5g water change since maintenance-day. i've had increased skimmer production for sure (at one point, my skimmer actually overflowed the collection cup). i'll probably do another 5g change in the next day or two.
the hair algae isn't too bad right now, but i do have some cyano that has started to accumulate right next to the tunze 6025. i don't know if there just isn't enough flow in that particular spot, but it hasn't gone away.
as far as other perceivable improvements, i haven't seen much yet, but it's only been a week. there is a possibility that my pink milli and my idaho grape cap are improving in color. my green cap with blue polyps looks almost white because it's so creamy. everything else looks about the same.
i've also noticed that, despite having increased my dosing to 15ml/day of Ca/Alk, my Alk is still hovering between 7-7.5dkh. i haven't been able to test my Ca because the Elos bottle leaking i mentioned.
the hair algae isn't too bad right now, but i do have some cyano that has started to accumulate right next to the tunze 6025. i don't know if there just isn't enough flow in that particular spot, but it hasn't gone away.
as far as other perceivable improvements, i haven't seen much yet, but it's only been a week. there is a possibility that my pink milli and my idaho grape cap are improving in color. my green cap with blue polyps looks almost white because it's so creamy. everything else looks about the same.
i've also noticed that, despite having increased my dosing to 15ml/day of Ca/Alk, my Alk is still hovering between 7-7.5dkh. i haven't been able to test my Ca because the Elos bottle leaking i mentioned.
ChicagoReefOne
New member
It'll take weeks for color to really return, if not a couple of months, it won't be overnight, at least that's been my experience. But it'll be worth it.
Ycore
New member
Ding! I think you probably just found your number one problem.. That's a lot of volts running through your tank. However, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, adding a grounding probe to a tank with stray voltage only makes the problem WORSE. Volts on their own is not a problem, it's current. By adding a grounding probe your completing the circuit and all you're doing is protecting yourself. You effectively mask the voltage problem while juicing your corals and fish. The probe is just meant to protect you from getting a shock, not as a method for dealing with a stray voltage problem. Dump the maxijet 1200 and anything else that's leaking more than a few volts. I find it hard to believe all that gear is leaking a few volts each, especially the vortech which doesn't even have it's motor in the water??
i am going to replace the maxijet, no question.
as far as the vortech adding volts, just as with the jbj ato/aqualifter (didn't bother to figure out which of those was adding the 3-4 volts), i think that something must be "backfeeding" through a power strip, for lack of a better term. once i get my Apex fully hooked up (played with it for a couple hours last night, but still not ready to switch over to it), i am going to go back with the multimeter and see if that makes a difference.
i've read a lot of differing opinions (both on RC threads and elsewhere) on ground probe use. i'd be happy to hear others weigh in, but my understanding is that GFCI/ground probe together seems to give you the safest scenario for you and your livestock because the ground probe grounds current that isn't supposed to be there, which creates the ground fault that causes the GFCI to trip (without grounding, the GFCI won't always necessarily detect a ground fault, so the risk of electrocution is still there). that's good in that it keeps the problem from shocking or electrocuting you/livestock, but it's bad in that it can result in the tank turning off without you knowing it. but, with the apex (this was a selling point for my wife on the apex), it can send you alerts to let you know when the GFCI trips so you can do something about it. how it does that after the GFCI powering it trips, i'm not sure...
as far as the vortech adding volts, just as with the jbj ato/aqualifter (didn't bother to figure out which of those was adding the 3-4 volts), i think that something must be "backfeeding" through a power strip, for lack of a better term. once i get my Apex fully hooked up (played with it for a couple hours last night, but still not ready to switch over to it), i am going to go back with the multimeter and see if that makes a difference.
i've read a lot of differing opinions (both on RC threads and elsewhere) on ground probe use. i'd be happy to hear others weigh in, but my understanding is that GFCI/ground probe together seems to give you the safest scenario for you and your livestock because the ground probe grounds current that isn't supposed to be there, which creates the ground fault that causes the GFCI to trip (without grounding, the GFCI won't always necessarily detect a ground fault, so the risk of electrocution is still there). that's good in that it keeps the problem from shocking or electrocuting you/livestock, but it's bad in that it can result in the tank turning off without you knowing it. but, with the apex (this was a selling point for my wife on the apex), it can send you alerts to let you know when the GFCI trips so you can do something about it. how it does that after the GFCI powering it trips, i'm not sure...
having said that, this article warns against using grounding probes because they actually do complete a circuit and create current in the aquarium where there otherwise may not be any: http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
as much as i love my fish/system, i value my house/life more -- so, again just based on what i've read, the debate over grounding probes seems to pit those two things against each other. in fact, the same person in this article shows examples where a grounding probe will actually cause a GFCI to trip when it otherwise would fail to: http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html
as much as i love my fish/system, i value my house/life more -- so, again just based on what i've read, the debate over grounding probes seems to pit those two things against each other. in fact, the same person in this article shows examples where a grounding probe will actually cause a GFCI to trip when it otherwise would fail to: http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html
Ycore
New member
I haven't gone into it too much, and I even remember there being a poll, but it seems like most people just use a GFCI without a probe.
The apex can email you if your GFCI trips using the following two methods:
1) you have the 12V power supply for the apex display so when your EB8 loses power (which normally powers the display) it can alert you that it is running on the 12v power supply
2) You have a second EB8 and it powers the display if the other eb8 goes down and can alert you (assuming each eb8 is on its own gfci and both dont trip)
The apex can email you if your GFCI trips using the following two methods:
1) you have the 12V power supply for the apex display so when your EB8 loses power (which normally powers the display) it can alert you that it is running on the 12v power supply
2) You have a second EB8 and it powers the display if the other eb8 goes down and can alert you (assuming each eb8 is on its own gfci and both dont trip)
this is interesting -- i guess i'd have to buy the 12v power supply separately?
i'll probably eventually acquire a second EB8. i'm pretty tapped out at this point, especially with having to buy the wireless bridge/gaming adapter to make the Apex wireless (i thought i might be able to use an old router, but my router's chipset wasn't compatible with DD-WRT).
Ycore
New member
Yeah, you can buy one direct from neptune, though I believe from what I read on the forum any 12v wall wart from radio shack with the right connector will work.
here we are 2 months later, and i'm not sure i can point to any real improvement after everything i did.
i lost my bluespot jawfish about 3 weeks ago to an unknown ailment. no ammonia, no nitrites, no nitrates, no phosphates detectable.
my Ca/Alk have been dead-on every time i've tested at 400ppm/7.5dkh. Mg was 1500 when i tested last week (a little higher than usual, but I'm not worried about that).
added an Apex Lite about a month ago -- it shows my temperature as a very stable 77.5-79F, and pH has been between 8.15 and 8.3.
in addition to a few sparse patches of hair algae, i have filmy algae all over the rocks in the display (it's transparent -- you can only see it when you're right up next to it), and i've had a lot of cotton candy algae in the sump. i've been trying to manually remove it every week or two, with marginal success. the chaeto in the sump has pretty much stopped growing entirely.
LFS water is reading 0 TDS at the source.
sigh.
i lost my bluespot jawfish about 3 weeks ago to an unknown ailment. no ammonia, no nitrites, no nitrates, no phosphates detectable.
my Ca/Alk have been dead-on every time i've tested at 400ppm/7.5dkh. Mg was 1500 when i tested last week (a little higher than usual, but I'm not worried about that).
added an Apex Lite about a month ago -- it shows my temperature as a very stable 77.5-79F, and pH has been between 8.15 and 8.3.
in addition to a few sparse patches of hair algae, i have filmy algae all over the rocks in the display (it's transparent -- you can only see it when you're right up next to it), and i've had a lot of cotton candy algae in the sump. i've been trying to manually remove it every week or two, with marginal success. the chaeto in the sump has pretty much stopped growing entirely.
LFS water is reading 0 TDS at the source.
sigh.
LifeAquatic
New member
Nutrients
Nutrients
Im reaching the same conclusion as the above. I believe the Algae feeds off other nutrients beyond nitrate and phosphate. In other words it is possible to have different types of Algae in a ULNS system. To those who say nitrate and phosphate are undetectable because they are being consumed by the algae doesnt make any sense. If nitrate and phosphate are feeding the algae you should be able to test for it! If the nitrate and phosphate is on a super low range undetectable by test then there shouldnt be enough nitrate and phosphate to fuel an algae bloom in the tank. The algae has to be feeding off something else other then nitrate and phosphate. Silicates maybe??
Nutrients
Im reaching the same conclusion as the above. I believe the Algae feeds off other nutrients beyond nitrate and phosphate. In other words it is possible to have different types of Algae in a ULNS system. To those who say nitrate and phosphate are undetectable because they are being consumed by the algae doesnt make any sense. If nitrate and phosphate are feeding the algae you should be able to test for it! If the nitrate and phosphate is on a super low range undetectable by test then there shouldnt be enough nitrate and phosphate to fuel an algae bloom in the tank. The algae has to be feeding off something else other then nitrate and phosphate. Silicates maybe??
Last edited:
gary faulkner
New member
timdanger
Just read all this thread. You say not much improvement but I disagree because now you have very stable parameters of Cal, Alk and Mg. Also you have eliminated any problem with water being at 0 tds. 8.15-8.3 great reading on Ph. All very good improvements over what you had going originally. Have you thought of running some GFO for phosphate removal? You can't have algae without phosphate. I would like to see what this would do for your system.
I would say great progress so far, just keep at it and it will continue to improve.
HTH
Just read all this thread. You say not much improvement but I disagree because now you have very stable parameters of Cal, Alk and Mg. Also you have eliminated any problem with water being at 0 tds. 8.15-8.3 great reading on Ph. All very good improvements over what you had going originally. Have you thought of running some GFO for phosphate removal? You can't have algae without phosphate. I would like to see what this would do for your system.
I would say great progress so far, just keep at it and it will continue to improve.
HTH
