pappone and BLU Coral method

[Green Thumb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9660772#post9660772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
marsh- the recipe's are very very simmilar, the difference being the particle size. with pappone is should be finely blended like a moush, with no chunks. this is better absorbed by corals etc...

the sugar addresses carbon limitation. it feeds bacs which in turn help keep the po4 and no3 down from the nutrient surge of the pappone. you feed the fish separately. this is done at night and for the corals

Green Thumb- I dose this on a couple tanks. It's my own C source and I use .10ml/10gallons. I do not use zeo, but do add bac additions every now and then to keep the populations where they need to be. I on days that I add pappone I cut back by C dosing.

I cant wait to see more of the zeo guys taking advantage of pappone less the sugar. The color manipulation and nutrient reduction of zeo combined with the nutrient surge and growth of blu coral should be great. I realize that the params arent matched the same, but with a constant stream of cal & alk, as long as it is not limiting...growth should still be much improved. It should help fight the overly pastel look of some zeo tanks....

eric

Thank you, so what exactly is your C source? Can I ask you how you make it?

I find this VERY interesting and have also considered dosing a carbon source daily or every 2 days.


By the way Im using Elos amino acids. I add 10 drops before dosing pappone. Ive been thingking of dosing them more frequently though, like every 2 days. What are your thaughts on this?

Im very happy about having been dosing pappone for 1 month. I dont have before and after pics but my growth has deffinatly kicked in. Surely keeping Ca, alk,Mg in check helps alot too...

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9654467#post9654467 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
I dont know if I'd say sugar is the active ingredient. IMO it's the blend of seafood. The amount of sugar added is very minimal. Does it feed the bacs, of course. And this in turn helps lower no3 and po4....but the system works because it is a nutrient/food spike. The corals rapidly absorb this. Even more so because of the AA's dosed prior which elicit PE. You could do the same thing with different enzymes to get better PE...

This system addresses problems associated with "nitrogen limitation"... With the food being the limiting factor, hindering growth....when the seafood slush is added food is no longer limiting which is why you hear of the increase in growth.

Does sugar help, yes. But if you have a filtration system and a low nutrient system its addition would go unoticed.

With that said, I dose a C source daily

eric

Most of us were feeding blended seafood/fishgoo before. We would have seen the same effects. The sugar is what makes pappone different from your typical fishgoo.

 

[glassbox-design]

my c source is a little bit of this, and a little bit of that i'm still experimenting. The main sources are vodka, sugar, and vinegar and i've been adding some other sources and watching thier effect. I'd suggest start2. It's a great mixed c source and what I use to compare/contrast.

My next batch of pappone I will try adding fish roe and creatine to the blend. It's going to be a while as I have plenty still in my freezer

AA's can help darken colors, but honestly it seems they're most useful for one thing...increasing PE. I add an amino blend every now and then, but primarily only add them with pappone.

Try it out and see if you notice any differences. On my new set up I want to try doing a low dose amino solution with my top off unit so there is a constant supply. If for anything to get some nice PE 24/7.

Anyone try the new KZ snow product? I want to see if it lives up the claims people are making. It would be a great additiong to the BC method, if it truly does allow better abosrbtion of elements to the coral. With the pappone it could have some great results!

eric

 

[glassbox-design]

Rich, most of us werent adding AA's before to prime the PE then adding a very finely blended fish goo at night for the sole purpose of corals.

As someone who was adding C sources before adding the pappone blend...the slury of pappone has it's own powerful effect...

the sugar added is very minimal. It does not provide enough bacs to contribute food to the corals to see the results we are getting. Also lowering no3 and po4 would not have an effect on growth or swelling of LPS corals as is experienced...

Green Thumb- I forgot to add, I add C every 1-3 days depending on the look of the tank.

eric

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9660256#post9660256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marsh
I have several questions:

1. How is the pappone much different from Borneman's method of feeding SPS http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176530

Borneman doesn't appear to use sugar...which I guess in the pappone helps reduce nitrate and phosphate. Otherthan that they seem very similar.

2. What is the purpose of sugar?

3. Do you feed fish separately or do they eat the pappone?

Sugar IS the difference between the two. Even in bournman's stuff, theres plenty of small particles to feed the corals. The difference is that the sugar causes a bacterial spike, which the corals can eat too. It also helps keep nutrients down.

 

[glassbox-design]

rich you're right. but take a look at the amount of sugar added and then think about the size of bacterial spike that will happen...it is very minimal and plays a part, but a small one.

borneman add's a bunch of "extra" in his (I dont think my corals need vibragrow). Although simmilar the italians perfected it.

I guess what I am getting at is, if one were to dose a C source and feed borneman's recipe they would not see the same results. I know because I have tried.

eric

 

[JRod]

Can I just jump in here with a couple of questions/statements, not sure if they were answered, if so I apologize.

1) Before all, as with any method water quality is the key here and until parameters are in check, stay away.

2) Do you add AA only prior to feeding, 2X week or every day. See conflicting info.

3) Can L-Glut be added to the mix and SeaChem be added as the normal AA addtion an hour before.

4) Obviously everyone has a different coral load. Is the 1/4 cube at start subjective to coral load. Meaning if someone has 10 frags in a 120 compared to 30 full colonies in a 120. Does one add more and the other less.

Thanks. Was going to try Zeo, but may go here first for that extra pop in my corals.

Joe

 

[mcintosh]

Just a quick point about the pappone, from someone who has not used it yet. It IS different from Bornemans recipe in several ways. Primarily the percentage of raw, fresh shellfish being used. Which of us is able to report all of the available proteins being added that are from a "natural" source the corals are used to? The blood of the shellfish probably also cause a significant bacterial bloom that we are not recognizing and the small size of the total pappone as well as the aggregates of the bacterial cloud associated with the total mix add to the food availability.

In other words. It isn't JUST the sugar, but it is the total, the aggregate.

 

[mcintosh]

Just a quick point about the pappone, from someone who has not used it yet. It IS different from Bornemans recipe in several ways. Primarily the percentage of raw, fresh shellfish being used. Which of us is able to report all of the available proteins being added that are from a "natural" source the corals are used to? The blood of the shellfish probably also cause a significant bacterial bloom that we are not recognizing and the small size of the total pappone as well as the aggregates of the bacterial cloud associated with the total mix add to the food availability.

In other words. It isn't JUST the sugar, but it is the total, the aggregate.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9661411#post9661411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
rich you're right. but take a look at the amount of sugar added and then think about the size of bacterial spike that will happen...it is very minimal and plays a part, but a small one.

borneman add's a bunch of "extra" in his (I dont think my corals need vibragrow). Although simmilar the italians perfected it.

I guess what I am getting at is, if one were to dose a C source and feed borneman's recipe they would not see the same results. I know because I have tried.

eric

The amount of sugar being added is MUCH more than the amount of amino acids being added. The amino acid pills are mostly filler, and the aquarium based ones are mostly water. It doesnt take a lot of sugar to do the job.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9661836#post9661836 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcintosh
Just a quick point about the pappone, from someone who has not used it yet. It IS different from Bornemans recipe in several ways. Primarily the percentage of raw, fresh shellfish being used. Which of us is able to report all of the available proteins being added that are from a "natural" source the corals are used to? The blood of the shellfish probably also cause a significant bacterial bloom that we are not recognizing and the small size of the total pappone as well as the aggregates of the bacterial cloud associated with the total mix add to the food availability.

In other words. It isn't JUST the sugar, but it is the total, the aggregate.

Right, but the sugar is what differentiates it from typical fish goo. Plenty of us have been using fishgoo with large amounts of shellfish in it for years. The sugar is the new part.

 

[danskim]

Sheesh let's not argue!

Why don't we settle it the old scientific way?
(I am not volunteering).

 

[GraviT]

I used a small amount of Pappone once a week for 3 weeks and ended up with a lovely mat of cyano and dino on my sandbed. No more for me.

I used the SeaChem Reef Plus for an AA suppliment, but had been using it for almost a month before I started the pappone. I'm not sure where the heck the dino came from, maybe it was in the gut of some of the seafood.

 

[SueT]

I haven't had any nuisance algae pop up anywhere. I do have plenty of flow so don't know if that might be the answer or not.

JRod, yes, SeaChems Reef Plus{or any AA} are adding 2 hours or so before adding the pappone. L-Glutaimne is added to the mixture and then frozen. I'm not sure about the total amount to add. I have a heavily stocked 120g and started with adding 1 cube and now after 16 feedings, of which the last 5 have been every 5 days and I'm still using 1 cube.

 

[JRod]

Sue,

Thanks for the reply. I guess I did not phrase exactly. Are AA added everyday or only prior to adding the Pappone 1X a week. Thanks.

 

[spongebobby]

I feed my tank with smaller amounts more frequently. I feed the pappone every other day. Instead of using the large cube trays, I used the small trays, they are about the size of a gumball . They are 3.6 ml each cube. I feed 1 cube every other day but dose AA every day. No bad algea growing so far. Been feeding for 3wks Sat. Pretty pleased so far.

 

[marsh]

“Pappone” Recipe â€"œ Italian Coral Food (Updated 1/14/2007)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar (not corn syrup, etc.)
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it allâ€"you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

from "Aquarium Corals" Eric H. Borneman T.F.H. Publications 2004 pg 64-65

Fresh seafood
6 whole fresh/thawed shrimp
12 fresh mussels
12 fresh clams
12 fresh oysters

Frozen Aquarium Foods
1 pkg frozen sea urchin
1 pkg frozen fish roe
225 gm decapsulated Artemia nauplii

Dried Seaweeds
1/2 cup

Sea Greens/antioxidants
10 gm aguagreens, or other

Dried Aquarium Foods
Marine Flake
pellet premium food


Liquid Vitamins
Selco, Super Selco, or other vitamin/amino acid supplements

These items are mixed and "liquefied" in a blender or food processor.

Borneman recommended 20 ml in 300 gal. (as opposed to Pappone 7.5 ml in 300 gal per week). He also recommended experimentation based on tank variances and water quality.

It appears that Borneman's coral feed adds a few more things than the Pappone method but does include vitamins and amino acids. As mentioned above it does not include sugar.

It appears to me that the sugar is the "missing" ingredient from Borneman's coral feed. I suspect that careful aquarists, including Borneman, had excellent results without sugar. With limited experience I am a believer in sugar/other carbon sources lowering PO4 and Nitrates. The addition of sugar to the Pappone coral feed is a measure of insurance in my opinion. Maybe it should be called the Poppins feed...just a spoon full of sugar keeps the phosphates down... the nitrates down...

 

[marsh]

“Pappone” Recipe â€"œ Italian Coral Food (Updated 1/14/2007)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar (not corn syrup, etc.)
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it allâ€"you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

from "Aquarium Corals" Eric H. Borneman T.F.H. Publications 2004 pg 64-65

Fresh seafood
6 whole fresh/thawed shrimp
12 fresh mussels
12 fresh clams
12 fresh oysters

Frozen Aquarium Foods
1 pkg frozen sea urchin
1 pkg frozen fish roe
225 gm decapsulated Artemia nauplii

Dried Seaweeds
1/2 cup

Sea Greens/antioxidants
10 gm aguagreens, or other

Dried Aquarium Foods
Marine Flake
pellet premium food


Liquid Vitamins
Selco, Super Selco, or other vitamin/amino acid supplements

These items are mixed and "liquefied" in a blender or food processor.

Borneman recommended 20 ml in 300 gal. (as opposed to Pappone 7.5 ml in 300 gal per week). He also recommended experimentation based on tank variances and water quality.

It appears that Borneman's coral feed adds a few more things than the Pappone method but does include vitamins and amino acids. As mentioned above it does not include sugar.

It appears to me that the sugar is the "missing" ingredient from Borneman's coral feed. I suspect that careful aquarists, including Borneman, had excellent results without sugar. With limited experience I am a believer in sugar/other carbon sources lowering PO4 and Nitrates. The addition of sugar to the Pappone coral feed is a measure of insurance in my opinion. Maybe it should be called the Poppins feed...just a spoon full of sugar keeps the phosphates down... the nitrates down...

 

[mmotown]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9661987#post9661987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GraviT
I used a small amount of Pappone once a week for 3 weeks and ended up with a lovely mat of cyano and dino on my sandbed. No more for me.

I used the SeaChem Reef Plus for an AA suppliment, but had been using it for almost a month before I started the pappone. I'm not sure where the heck the dino came from, maybe it was in the gut of some of the seafood.

My corals grew from the pappone but I have never had a cyano problem on my sand bed and now I do. Hate to discontinue the use of pappone but I have to. Also noticed a few corals RTN'ing never had that problem before.

 

[antonsemrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9632308#post9632308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by antonsemrad
OK.. Whatever.....

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9644632#post9644632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Anton, theres a reason I'm insistent that there needs to be sugar in Pappone for you to call it Pappone.

1) Its the active ingredient, IE the one that makes a difference.

2) If we have people adding different variations of the recipe, and reporting back, then we dont have anything. If all the people using sugar are seeing improvements, and none of hte people not using it are, and everyone is calling it Pappone, then we'll get back a 50/50 on whether or not the stuff is working, when thats not really the case.

In order to have this thread actually tell us anything, there needs to be some consistency. We can't have people dosing totally different foods, and their results to the same pool of information.

Sugar is the main ingredient here that makes this different from most other foods. It balances out the phosphate, and makes it much more removable.

Rich: Thank you for the reply. I apologize for the tone of my post. You bring up a good point.

If we have people adding different variations of the recipe, and reporting back, then we dont have anything

I disagree. If different people give different variations, that would tell more. I suspect that nitrogen is the active ingredient.

I could be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.)

There has been a lot of discussion about AA's, but if people don't say if they are useing it or not we will never know how useful they are.

The same is true for organic carbon.
Just fish goo might work I think. Why not? Please, do tell, did it not work for you?

The sugar is for nutrients,. no? so... if when you add the goo and your nutrients go up, are there not less risky options? Is is always a givin that they will go up? Will sugar make sure that they don't?

IMO organic carbon is one option among many. Heck, we still don't understand what role bactieria play in our own digestive systems (prilosec anyone?), let alone in our reef tanks. Just because it worked for you dosen't mean that it will work for everyone.

The recipe calls for one tablespoon, but, it doesn't talk at all about the different factors that may play a role in what the bactieria will do in a reef tank. How big of a bioload do you have? How many fish? Sandbed? How deep? How many corals? How much mucus do they shed? Skimmer? How big? How much of this are you feeding? Can you add more with less sugar over time? Or is more sugar needed? Do you have any sponges? Do you have a Algae filter? The list goes on...

Of course it is possible that there isn't enough carbon in the recipe to do much. But, it just seems irresponsible to me to not address any of these issues, and just follow a recipe without thinking about whats in it, what it does and what you expect it to do in your reef system.

For example;

One tank that is a BB reef with only a few fish, and a few small frags that is only a few months old.

VS

Another tank that is grown in with a sandbed, with lots of fish, and 8 years old.

Would you add the same amount of sugar to each?

What if you reversed the sandbed factor?

Then what?

I still say skip the sugar, and then decide what to do after observations.

JMO, Anton