PAR Shootout! Seneye Reef Monitor v2 VS. Apogee MQ-510 Full Spectrum Underwater Meter

jason2459

jason2459

Well-known member
Background:
I bought a Seneye Reef Monitor off another member on this forum mainly for the par meter for some basic tracking and comparing which lesson learned I should have done a long time ago. I quickly realized I also really liked some of the other features of the device.

Posted about how useful ammonia monitoring could be even for an established reef tank here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24644333#post24644333

The PAR meter component alone though seemed like a great value and doesn't need any slides to work. BRS has stated that they found the Seneye to be better at reading LEDs then the older Apogee Par meter which is the 200 series also used by the Apex PMK.

In there Q&A for the Apex PMK.
BRS_on_Seneye_vs_PMK by Jason, on Flickr


The Apogee:
The newer Apogee 500 series like the MQ-510 is supposed to be adjusted to read a wider range for LED use and adjusted for under water readings.

http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/quantum/
quantum-spectral-response.gif


MQ-510: Full Spectrum Underwater Quantum Meter
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/mq-510-full-spectrum-underwater-quantum-meter/
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/underwater-par-measurements




The Seneye:
BUT Seneye recently released a new firmware and software update SCA v2.

https://www.seneye.com/download

Which among other cool things like out of water alerting (great for ato/sump alerts) it also updated the light sensor to include PUR. Then I started wondering how it would compare to Apogee's new series designed more for LEDs and aquarium readings.


Testing Setup:
So, here we go with the comparisons. I'm sure it's not perfect but it's comparable numbers I find impressive. Both monitors varied a lot depending on direction the sensor was pointed so I had to be as still as possible and had the best luck resting the sensors on something. No difference there at all between the two. Both seemed very sensitive.

I'm still getting lighting spectrum adjusted and I still plan on playing with T5 bulb combinations which I have some ATI Blue+ and True Actinics on there way to try different combinations.

But for all the readings below are with the 2 rows of 2x photon v2 32" fixtures and the T5 dual bulb 80w ATI Coral+.

My lighting setup can be seen in this thread for more details which I just got setup over the weekend:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24982799#post24982799

b9131b2089ef9e621771f00a1ed7a89b.jpg


Each fixture has the following LEDs
Channel 1 Deep Red 4 Osram 3watt 660nm
Channel 2 Green 4 Semi LED 3watt 520nm
Channel 3 Royal Blue 20 Cree XT-E 5watt 450nm
Channel 4 White 16 Cree XP-E 5watt 5500K
Channel 5 Cool Blue 12 Cree XP-E 3watt 480nm
Channel 6 Violet 16 Semi LED 3watt 420nm

x4 and that's 288 LEDS total

Clustered as so:
Photonv2_32_LED_Layout by Jason, on Flickr


I have my lighting ramping up from 9am to 11pm with a peak at 4pm

I'm starting low and going to ramp up a bit more as time goes by as I just got these up but right now as measured below

my 4pm %:
Ch-1: 2
Ch-2: 2
Ch-3: 20
Ch-4: 5
Ch-5: 16
Ch-6: 16

and my 6pm %
Ch-1: 1
Ch-2: 1
Ch-3: 16
Ch-4: 3
Ch-5: 14
Ch-6: 14
 
The Readings:
So, here's the readings I took tonight comparing the Seneye Reef v2 firmware update and the Apogee MQ-510. (Sorry for the flash on the laptop as I had to use the flash to be able to read the Apogee's display too.)

Photon v2 6pm settings and T5's on. Near the middle of the tank and mid way down in the water. No rocks to shade.
6pm settings photon v2 + t5s by Jason, on Flickr

6pm settings photon v2 + t5e by Jason, on Flickr



Photon v2 6pm settings. No T5s. Near the middle of the tank and mid way down in the water. No rocks to shade.
6pm settings photon v2 only by Jason, on Flickr

6pm settings photon v2 only by Jason, on Flickr


Photon v2 6pm settings. No T5s. Off to the side with a cross brace over top. (I was very happy to see no difference statistically between no shading and cross brace shading showing me I've got some great spread going on)
6pm settings photon v2 only brace overhead by Jason, on Flickr

6pm settings photon v2 only brace overhead by Jason, on Flickr


Photon v2 6pm settings + T5's on. Middle of the tank about 6" from surface.
6pm settings photon v2 + t5 6" from surface by Jason, on Flickr

6pm settings photon v2 + t5 6" from surface by Jason, on Flickr
 
All of the rest are at 30% individual Channels.

Channel 1 Deep Red 4 Osram 3watt 660nm (edit: Just noticed this was the highest pur rating. Kudos to reef breeders for selecting deep red for the red channel led)
Photon v2 30% red only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% red only by Jason, on Flickr



Channel 2 Green 4 Semi LED 3watt 520nm
Photon v2 30% channel 2 green only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% channel 2 green only by Jason, on Flickr



Channel 3 Royal Blue 20 Cree XT-E 5watt 450nm
Photon v2 30% channel 3 royal blue only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% channel 3 royal blue only by Jason, on Flickr


Channel 4 White 16 Cree XP-E 5watt 5500K
Photon v2 30% channel 4 white only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% channel 4 white only by Jason, on Flickr


Channel 5 Cool Blue 12 Cree XP-E 3watt 480nm
Photon v2 30% channel 5 cool blue only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% channel 5 cool blue only by Jason, on Flickr
 
Channel 6 Violet 16 Semi LED 3watt 420nm (Check out that PUR!)
Photon v2 30% channel 5 violet only by Jason, on Flickr

Photon v2 30% channel 5 violet only by Jason, on Flickr


My Conclusion:
I have to say the Seneye was right there shoulder to shoulder with the Apogee. Both were live readings so constantly changing but well with in 10 of each other and criss crossing. The Seneye also has the edge here in that it also provides the LUX, Spectral range, and PUR. I was skeptical on if the Spectral Range and PUR was accurate but after going through the individual channels I'm feeling pretty comfy with at least the Spectral Ranges. The latest firmware update and the Seneye really make for one heck of a good value for a light meter! I give the edge here to the Seneye for value and features!
 
BRS did this with another lab grade device and the Seneye was within 1% every time.

Funnily enough I believe their next video is on this very topic, should be out soon.
 
Bronx19 said:
BRS did this with another lab grade device and the Seneye was within 1% every time.

Funnily enough I believe their next video is on this very topic, should be out soon.
Click to expand...

I believe it was with their Li-Cor. They are going through a full on light testing series now. Tested above water and under water readings already. I think you are right and will be comparing several models against their Licor.
 
Very interesting. I was debating on sending in my Apogee MQ-200 for the MQ510 update. Maybe I will hold off. Do you know when the Seneye V2 update was released? I updated mine a couple months ago but don't recall whether it was V2 or not. Thanks for sharing the results!
 
slief said:
Very interesting. I was debating on sending in my Apogee MQ-200 for the MQ510 update. Maybe I will hold off. Do you know when the Seneye V2 update was released? I updated mine a couple months ago but don't recall whether it was V2 or not. Thanks for sharing the results!
Click to expand...

Looks like it just got released in January.

http://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye_Products/SCA_Version_2_information/SCA_change_log
Version 2.1.20

Released 01-03-17

here's the download for it. And it is a non-roll back type of firmware update.
https://www.seneye.com/download
 
Definitely shows how water effects and reduces Reds quickly with PAR so low while being driven at the same power intensity by the fixture. But with the PUR that high how much PAR is actually needed? Same with other color spectrums and PAR vs. PUR. Or are reds very useful or harmful? Could it promote algae growth as 660nm LEDs are used on my Trubo's Aquatics ATS if I remember right. And that thing grows algae like crazy. There's one paper out there showing Reds represses at least one type of corals. But what about others? Anemones? Clams? Etc.

Red Light Represses the Photophysiology of the Scleractinian Coral Stylophora pistillata
Tim Wijgerde , Anne van Melisa, Catarina I. F. Silva, Miguel C. Leal, Luc Vogels, Claudia Mutter, Ronald Osinga
Published: March 21, 2014
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092781


PAR vs PUR
https://orphek.com/pur-photosynthetically-useable-radiation/


Algae Scrubber use of 660nm LEDs
http://www.turbosaquatics.com/features.html
Brand name matters
My Algae Scrubber light fixtures use top quality 3-watt Philips 660nm Deep Red and SemiLED 420nm Hyper-Violet LEDs, mounted to a metal-core PCB (printed circuit board).

Brand name matters, and on top of that, even the selection of specific LEDs from a manufacturer matters! This is referred to as "bin selection". The short explanation is that LED manufacturers make a huge batch of chips, then test them to see how they turned out, and sort them based on quality.

I don't go to discount suppliers, or get "grab bag" LEDs - those might seem like a cheap solution, but in case you haven't heard: I don't do cheap, I do quality. I only use specific bin numbers, and I use the same ones for all my scrubbers - and I always have. This ensures consistent quality from one unit to the next.

I use 660nm Deep Reds as the primary color spectrum. I use 420nm Hyper-Violets as a supplementary spectrum. I used to use Royal Blues, but I (as well as several others) learned that Royal Blues can actually be too intense (causing Photosaturation), and that the deep-violet spectrum works much better. It's worth noting that you won't find many (if any) Deep Red + Deep Violet off-the-shelf fixtures. The reason for this is because cheap violets suck @#% - they de-laminate and fry easily, and Royal Blue LEDs are just fine for growing plants (which incidentally is what most growth-lights are made for, they're not made for Algae Scrubbers). High-quality deep Violets are much more expensive, so no one looking to make a buck even bothers to look at them.
 
Another perspective of PAR vs PUR. Above with the Royal Blue vs. Warm White is a good example. Both 5watt Cree LEDs.

The Royal Blue at 30% was around 79 PAR. The White at 30% was around 115 PAR. Much higher. But the PUR for the Royal Blue was 85% of that 79 so about 67.15 usable. The white was 56% PUR of that 115PAR so about 64.4 usable. That Royal Blue was more effective at a lower par.

A little blurb on Seneye's PAR and what drives their PUR measurements. I wanted to make sure I was reading the PUR reading right which is a percentage of that PAR reading.

http://answers.seneye.com/index.php?title=en/Aquarium_help/What_is_PAR_&_PUR_?

"As a seneye measures both spectrum and PAR it can give a good idea of the % of PUR in a PAR value."


On Seneye making their PAR sensor specialized for reef lighting particularly the blue spectrum. Possibly why it's better at the LED readings then the older Apogee model was.

" most PAR devices are aimed for use in greenhouses where they are more interested in the red end of the PAR spectrum as this is where most terrestrial plant get there useful light from. The seneye device is more sensitive than most at light below 450nm (bluer). This is arguably the most important spectra for coral and why most marine aquarists use additional actinic (03) spectrum bulbs."
 
SPotter said:
does seneye give you kelvin values as well?
Click to expand...
Yes but they can't read kelvin over 10k which isn't much use for most of us. You can see Kelvin readings in some of those individual channels.

http://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye...t_meter_functions/no_kelvin_on_light_readings

"Once you are above 10k, the kelvin quickly shifts up and toward infinity with the addition of only tiny amounts of blue light. This will create a point so far off the line that we have to label it "˜not a kelvin'. Also, plant tubes high in green can pull the spectra point away from the line toward being a green colour.


Actinic lighting does not have a kelvin; it is a blue-coloured (wavelength) lamp, and a single tube can add significant amounts of blue which will also give "˜not a kelvin'. "
 
jason2459 said:
Yes but they can't read kelvin over 10k which isn't much use for most of us. You can see Kelvin readings in some of those individual channels.

http://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye...t_meter_functions/no_kelvin_on_light_readings

"Once you are above 10k, the kelvin quickly shifts up and toward infinity with the addition of only tiny amounts of blue light. This will create a point so far off the line that we have to label it "˜not a kelvin'. Also, plant tubes high in green can pull the spectra point away from the line toward being a green colour.


Actinic lighting does not have a kelvin; it is a blue-coloured (wavelength) lamp, and a single tube can add significant amounts of blue which will also give "˜not a kelvin'. "
Click to expand...

i am running the same leds as you so this is very interesting. I have the bio-tek usb par meter but have wondering how accurate it is.

Is the Seneye Mac friendly? do you have the one that includes the web server and wifi connection or just the basic one?
 
SPotter said:
i am running the same leds as you so this is very interesting. I have the bio-tek usb par meter but have wondering how accurate it is.

Is the Seneye Mac friendly? do you have the one that includes the web server and wifi connection or just the basic one?
Click to expand...


It does not look to be Mac friendly
System requirements:
• Windows PC with a wired or wireless network and TCP/IP protocol running Windows 7 SP1, Windows 8, Windows 8.1, Windows 10, Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1, Windows Server 2012 and Windows Server 2012 R2

There is a web server base (wifi or wired available) and you can access it through a web portal.
but it brings the cost up
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aquarium-monitors-controllers/controllers-monitors/seneye.html

I have the seneye+ reef and just connect it to an old laptop I have in the basement for sump use.
https://www.seneye.com/devices/seneye-reef

But from my understanding if you find a cheap used home or pond one you can upgrade it to get the light meter enabled through a software and firmware update for $60
https://www.seneye.com/store/light-meter-update.html
 
Also to add in response to the lack of Kelvin for our needs it does seem to do a pretty good job at the spectral charting which I think may be more important. I'm going to be interested in if I can use that to see when phosphors are burning out and spectrum is shifting in my T5's and my LEDs.

Many LEDs have phosphors in them too and they have a limited lifetime and most likely much shorter then the base LED itself which will cause a spectrum shift. Cheaper LEDs like epileds or bridglux will most likely burn through the phosphors faster then say a Cree. Keeping the LEDs cool will help a lot and not driving them at 100%.
 
Once I installed the v2 software I noticed that PAR readings on the seneye got tons more accurate so it's nice to see the side by side. I also like that the readings echo the mq-510 which already takes into account the 30% immersion factor so Seneye readings are basically dead on.
 
thanks for this, I was going to pull the trigger on the Apogee but will go the Seneye at a third the price and the same accuracy! Awesome thread
 
Thanks everyone. The Apogee MQ with handheld reader does have the edge of portability, ease of use, and can get into tighter places.
 
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