People love LED's... Corals do not !!

This post might be more accurately titled "Some people love LED's... my corals do not love my LED's". Just like any other lighting system there are variables beyond the technology type. There are mercury arc lamps that grow coral well and render color nicely and other... not so much.

Your AI is an RB/CW luminaire which has big spectral voids. Some people(including myself) are experimenting with "full spectrum" arrays where an LED targets each photosynthetic pigment. The jury is still out on what is ideal but condemnation of a technology based on personal experience with a single sample isn't very scientific.

Exactly what I said in my posts on both the title point and the not so scientific point! Not sure why people keep saying this wasn't scientific- I state that many times in all 3 of the posts on this thread... Wasn't trying to be sciency-just sharing my opinion and inferences..

Will bold next time !!

Thanks,
JIM
 
Your talking about vivid aquariums. That is probably one of the most famous shops in the us. That experiment is complete fail. The guy is a vender for ecotech and it has been said he can't say any negative comments on the radion since he sells them. I talked to people who personally know him and he admitted that the mh side was getting color.

Why would he do the experiment in the first place if he was beholden to one side and unable to say anything negative about one side?
 
Not sure why people keep saying this wasn't scientific- I state that many times in all 3 of the posts on this thread... Wasn't trying to be sciency-just sharing my opinion and inferences..
JIM

Perhaps what you wrote originally below led people to believe your statement in the title was gathered based on factual, somewhat scientific methods.

My degree (masters) is in animal science and I have taught biology for the past 7 years at the high school level. I reference this only to show that I know how to set up and carry out an experiment.
JIM

just sayn...
-Robert
 
Perhaps what you wrote originally below led people to believe your statement in the title was gathered based on factual, somewhat scientific methods.



just sayn...
-Robert

Yes,
Definately should have put my last sentence in the original post directly under that statement. Or, should have added, "So I know that this isn't a true valid scientific experiment".

I didn't realize people would analyze it so much..

Some of the posts asked for some more shots of the aquascaping and such. For those that wanted a few more pics here are some from another thread I posted earlier:

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Lighting: 4 aqua illumination sol super blues
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thanks,
 
Jim,
Would you consider adding a diy fixture to your 90? Maybe if you supplement with other spectrums your tank will get better?

I had MH on my old tank, and am working on a LED fixture for my new tank. Although LED's may not be the best source for light(time will tell) they are easier for me than replacing bulbs often. I plan on putting things in that shouldn't have a problem growing. I have seen LPS tanks take off in led lit tanks. someone had said not to use lenses, and I think they be on to something.... or maybe we need to just turn down the lights!
 
One thing I never see in these LED vs the world threads is

Plasma Light (T5, MH, The Sun)
Vs
Electroluminescence (LED)

Go.
I'll bite, and we can add this to the mix.
There are mercury arc lamps that grow coral well and render color nicely and other... not so much.
Plasma lamps, commonly known as "High Intensity Discharge" or HID lamps include Metal Halide, Mercury vapor and Sodium Vapor (HPS or High Pressure Sodium and LPS, Low Pressure Sodium. While MH works well for our purposes, Mercury Vapor and High Pressure Sodium don't seem to work as well. Low Pressure Sodium emits only yellow light (around 595nm, IIRC) and would be completely useless for our purposes.
T5's, along with NO, HO, VHO and CF fluorescents do use plasma initially, but it the plasma produces only UV light which, in turn, excites phosphors and causes the phosphors to emit the light we need for our tanks.

LEDs produce light by electroluminescence, as has been noted, but in many LEDs this light is used to excite phosphors that emit colors that can not be produced by electroluminescence. In my mind, this makes them not-entirely-different from a fluorescent light source.

You asked for "Go," my arguement would have to be that "plasma" alone does not make a lamp suitable for a reef tank, that T5s may not belong in the "plasma category" and that if phosphors can produce suitable light in a fluorescent tube there is no reason that the same phosphors can't be used in an LED.
Anyone care to discuss Quartz Halogen?

Your AI is an RB/CW luminaire which has big spectral voids. Some people(including myself) are experimenting with "full spectrum" arrays where an LED targets each photosynthetic pigment. The jury is still out on what is ideal but condemnation of a technology based on personal experience with a single sample isn't very scientific.
Agreed. RB/CW is already old technology and the current crop of manufactured fixtures has made some dramatic improvements over the lights the OP has been using. DIY fixtures are now using emitters and combinations that aren't yet available in a pre-made fixture, so todays DIY LEDs are probably two or three generations more advanced than the OP's RB/CW lights.
That's the problem with any fast-moving technology, by the time you have long-term data, the equipment is obsolete. If we all waited to replace our computers until the latest and greatest processor has proven itself there'd be quite a few 386 machines still in use. In LEDs, the latest and greatest is only found at the DIY level, combinations that work well for DIY now will be found in next year's pre-built fixtures. That said, the fixture I'm working on will include 420nm violet, 445 and 455nm RB, 470nm blue and a mix of neutral and warm white emitters (still up in the air on 660nm red). Many T5 and MH bulbs have peaks at, or near the same wavelengths and by using the correct quantities of each I should be able to create a very similar spectrum.
I also agree that basing your inference on a sample size of one is very unscientific, and if you start off your post by stating your credentials as a scientist you should expect to be called on it.

This post might be more accurately titled "Some people love LED's... my corals do not love my LED's".
+1, I was going to go with "People love LEDs...but some corals might not."

BTW, all HID and fluorescent lamps are classified as hazardous waste, I hope we are all disposing of our used bulbs in an appropriate manner. The Hg contained in these lamps is not something you want to send "just anywhere."

EDIT; Thanks for adding the photos, the tank and pond are both beautiful.
 
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IMHO LED's are the wave of the future in our hobby and someday will dominate over MH's and T5's. As of today I wouldnt even consider putting out the big bucks for them. Just my 2 cents.
 
To the OP - what would happen if you were to place a T5 unit or a MH pendant over a portion of the large tank? If things started to recover, that would point towards the lighting being the culprit. Or taking your MH unit from school and swapping it for an LED unit at home, and seeing what happened.

If it turns out that the LEDs are indeed the problem, I am very sorry both for your coral losses and the cost of the units. I don't claim to know much about LEDs, but I have heard that earlier units did lack spectrum around 420 nm.

Best wishes, and your tank/pond/home looks amazing. Very nice family pics as well. Good luck!
 
well the wife and kids look great so you're doing something right! :) I still hope you will change up the lighting to get the tank doing better - even in its declined state it is still gorgeous.
 
We're Radions out two years ago? Anyway I think that you should change your lighting. Why start a thread stating your corals are dying and doing poorly and that you feel bad, and then say I'm going to keep them anyway. Your Causing a slow and painful death with these lights to your inhabitants. I do agree that you payed a lot for these subpar LEDs, but I don't think it's the only reason for your tanks demise.
 
We're Radions out two years ago? Anyway I think that you should change your lighting. Why start a thread stating your corals are dying and doing poorly and that you feel bad, and then say I'm going to keep them anyway. Your Causing a slow and painful death with these lights to your inhabitants. I do agree that you payed a lot for these subpar LEDs, but I don't think it's the only reason for your tanks demise.

Thanks for the response, my lights are aqua illumination and they were out two years ago as were radions I believe. As I hope you can tell from the pics the tank has stabalized. My issue is that I am very limited by coral selection now. I know which ones do well in my tank and only purchase those. The problem is that I shouldn't be limited as much as I am. More specifically I can only purchase soft coral now and specific species. Even within zoos I know which colors/species will survive and which wont. (Orange = good, blue=bad survival rate)

Please don't think I am just sitting idle by watching my tank suffer. Most people think I am crazy when they see my tank and I tell them I am disapointed in it. I still think the tank is top notch (pic of tank today) :

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Just hate being limited so much when I spent so much and thought I was getting an upgrade.

Thanks,
JIM
 
Nice answer Brewguy. I understand what you are saying. I have always been one to say the missing link lies around UV with LEDs. All of out current lights leach some level of UV light. LEDs do not. Most of the LEDs (including the AI Sol the OP is using) were designed to hit the photosynthetic peaks of the animals. Reason UV has always come to mind to me is that the lower the wavelength, the deeper it penetrates water. The Sun emits UV light so it is safe to assume that beyond the depth of Red light (first color filtered) that the blues, violets and ultraviolets are the colors for photosynthesis. we really only use the blue in the first gen LEDs. I think that one it is all figured out, it will be great lighting. Personally, IMHO, that will not be done with single star board LEDs. It will be done with multichips.
 
Hi Jim,

At the risk of swirling the skimmate around the bucket once again... As one person who asked for pics of your control tank, please understand that it wasn't a snarky comment on my part; I merely assumed that you had a control tank under MH with similar livestock and you were making comparisons. I understand now that this isn't the case and I'm fine with it.

With that out of the way, AI has announced that it will be offering Vega upgrades to existing Sol owners for $250 per fixture. Maybe you could upgrade 2 of your Sols to Vegas and hold a shootout between old and new LED technology? Or upgrade all 4 and just report on your experiences a few weeks/months after the upgrade?
 
Agreed. RB/CW is already old technology... DIY fixtures are now using emitters and combinations that aren't yet available in a pre-made fixture, so todays DIY LEDs are probably two or three generations more advanced than the OP's RB/CW lights... In LEDs, the latest and greatest is only found at the DIY level, combinations that work well for DIY now will be found in next year's pre-built fixtures.

+1. IMO, manufacturers jumped into production before the equipment was perfected. Had I had the money to buy a fixture rather than build it, I would also be stuck with CW/RB technology.

My DIY LEDs are now UV (violet), royal blue, blue, cool white, and warm white. I am thinking about adding a few red emitters. The fixture allows me to dim each color group so I can tweak the overall color spectrum. I think this combination provides adequate PUR (about 380-480 nm and 650-700 nm) and good color rendition. That being said, although my SPS and even the leathers I have seem to like the light, mushrooms and zoas don't. I think it has to do with intensity rather than the type of equipment making the light.
 
Thanks for the response, my lights are aqua illumination and they were out two years ago as were radions I believe. As I hope you can tell from the pics the tank has stabalized. My issue is that I am very limited by coral selection now. I know which ones do well in my tank and only purchase those. The problem is that I shouldn't be limited as much as I am. More specifically I can only purchase soft coral now and specific species. Even within zoos I know which colors/species will survive and which wont. (Orange = good, blue=bad survival rate)

Please don't think I am just sitting idle by watching my tank suffer. Most people think I am crazy when they see my tank and I tell them I am disapointed in it. I still think the tank is top notch (pic of tank today) :

Just hate being limited so much when I spent so much and thought I was getting an upgrade.

Thanks,
JIM

AI has sold LEDs in one form or another for several years. EcoTech Radion lights have been available since October, 2011, so they were not out 2 years ago.
 
Nice answer Brewguy. I understand what you are saying. I have always been one to say the missing link lies around UV with LEDs. All of out current lights leach some level of UV light. LEDs do not. Most of the LEDs (including the AI Sol the OP is using) were designed to hit the photosynthetic peaks of the animals. Reason UV has always come to mind to me is that the lower the wavelength, the deeper it penetrates water. The Sun emits UV light so it is safe to assume that beyond the depth of Red light (first color filtered) that the blues, violets and ultraviolets are the colors for photosynthesis. we really only use the blue in the first gen LEDs. I think that one it is all figured out, it will be great lighting. Personally, IMHO, that will not be done with single star board LEDs. It will be done with multichips.

What? No!
Single ended MH doesn't emit UV. UVA and UVB don't penetrate water very deep, both are 1% of above water value by 11m. At 1 meter are less than 50%. less than 30% by 2m. This is readings from the sun.
Meaning most things we keep in the tank only see the tiniest amount of UVA and UVB (the wavelengths that the LED's and MH can create).
It's also interesting to not that most coral in the ocean have par readings around 90-100, yet we seem to think that 200+ is needed.

I don't think there are many people that understand what is needed for coral to grow, not like with plants anyways.
 
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