Perplexed

[reddtiger88]

Hi all!

As the title reads, I am a bit confused at this point. My corals are just not doing well all of a sudden. A little information first. I have a 75 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. I use a 6 stage r/o di for top off water with reef crystals. There is a bubble magus curve 9 in there with a refugium that holds Chaeto. I drip a small amount of kalk. I have an led in the fuge and the chaeto hardly grows. I run phosphate and silica remover. I use filter socks that get changed every three days. Up top I use a couple of rw8 Jebabo pumps and the return pump for flow. It has small Fiji pink gravel and about 60 pounds of rock maybe more. I took some of the rock and gravel from an existing tank so it was well seeded. I have a maroon clown a mandarin and a cardinal all doing well. The mandarin is fed with pods. I feed the rest daily. The lights are Radion gen four pro. I don't have the reef link so I have to set it manually every time. What a pain by the way. It is set on the coral lab ab+ setting at about 45 percent I just recently bumped it up to about 50 percent slowly and a pink and blue Monti just bleached. It was about half way down the tank at the time. I moved it lower. I have Acroporas up top and Monti's midway and a frogspawn and hammer on the bottom. There are button polyps, zoas, and gsp spread around here and there as well. Also, a hitchhiker Zenia. This is the perplexing part. The Zenia did just enough to barely survive for months. now it looks like its growing fast. One Acropora is doing o.k., but has lost color. The one on top doesn't grow and has lost blue coloring, but it doesnt degrade at all other than color. it might have grown ever so little as well. I have a birds nest that has lost color on top but is growing like mad. I have a different nest just over that lost color and has recessed in the tips only. it grew quit well in the when first introduced and doubled in size then stopped. None of the montis are doing well. When first introduced they grew a little then stopped and lost color. they maintain but don't grow or die.The gsp of course grows and looks good. Duh! I have a Ricodria that has color and looks good. The zoanthids do ok, but don't reproduce. Same for the button polyps. The ricordia was in my old biocube 14 and grew and split. One of the acroporas was in there as well and grew madly. the bleached monti was also in there and grew well. Same for the button polyps and gsp. That thing had a Steve's led retrofit hood, so you can't say its the led, because they have always been under led. O.k., so I know what you want, data.
Here it is. This tank is six months old. I know a little early but, I have been doing this for 30 years and I never had this much trouble before.

All of these numbers are stable with periodic small spikes of phosphate when the remover wears out. I test at least once a week with red sea except where noted

Salinity 1.026
Temp 78 only moves one degree north occasionally
Ph 8.0
alk 2.5 I know a little on the low end
calc 420
Mag 1400
nitrate 0
phos 0 hanna checker
Iodine .06
k 400
fe 0
strontium 0
Ok so I dose about 60 ml of Ferrion a week and it barely moves my test. I have yet to achieve a stable level of iron, but I'm working on it. I read that strontium is unimportant by Randy Holmes-Farley. I am buying strontium today and will start dosing soon. I can't think of anything else. Any suggestions? More phospahte and or nitrate? I was always under the idea that 0 was the goal for phos and nitrate, but I understand the new theory that it needs to beavailable for the zoox.

 

[Scott07]

Im no expert.... nor do I play one on tv lol.... but in my limited experience, if youre trying to keep sps, alkalinity is probably the parameter you need to be most concerned with. Not at all saying phosphate, magnesium, calcium, etc... arent very important, but with an alk. of 2.5, it doesn't surprise me at all that stony corals wouldn't be growing. I would suggest shooting for more in the 8 or 9 range, and keeping it stable there with dosing if necessary. But be careful raising it.... raising or lowering alk. too quickly is one of the easiest ways ive found to bring on STN or RTN.

 

[reefgeezer]

Lot's of unknowns here, but I'll take a stab... or more like a shot-gun...

The corals you mention have very different requirements that are hard to satisfy, particularly in a immature system. The GSP, Xenias, etc. need high organic levels to prosper. Nitrate & phosphate are not a big issue. Most don't need that much light. The SPS corals do well in high light and low"er" but not zero nutrient levels. Organic levels for them are somewhat important but are usually limited by restrictions on nutrient levels. These corals have different current requirements also.

Dosing iron, iodine, potassium and other minor trace elements hasn't been proven to do much in systems that get regular water changes. I've tried many without any noticeable long term results. Additionally, many hobby grade products, like your iron supplement, are very dilute and require much more to be added than directed to reach a desired level. I'm unsure as to how your iron reading would be zero though, even if you are not doing water changes.

You may on to something about nitrate & phosphate. However, sometimes it is better to feed more than it is to dose them directly.

You may also be using too much phosphate remover. That can irritate corals greatly. If allowed to, your Cheato might control the phosphate level all by its self. If not, a small supplemental phosphate remover can be added. Maybe you could remove the reactor for now, get the Cheato growing, and see if you can get phosphate up to stay somewhere around .03 ppm with a combination of Cheato and when needed, a little phosphate remover.

Increased water changes is also a fine way to supplement minor trace elements.

 

[f3honda4me]

That alk is more than a little low, it's a lot low. :/ That's at least part of your issue for sure.

 

[mcgyvr]

Guys..
Thats 2.5meq/L which = 7dKH = just fine for SPS with low nutrients..

0 nitrates/phosphates is not really good.. (quite frankly its probably impossible as nothing would be growing/living at all) but test kits just aren't accurate enough to give proper numbers..
Letting them creep up a bit might/should help some..

I didn't read the whole post though.. Not enough spaces used to separate thoughts so its too hard for me to read

 

[reddtiger88]

2.5 meq is in the range of "acceptable" but on the south end. AS for the nitrate and Phosphate, all test kits error, so is it 0? I doubt it. The theory is that they take whatever is available and then the kit reads zero. How else can I put that. Yes, if it was actually zero the Chaeto would be dead and the corals would have absolutely no zooxanthelle. So, yes there is some, but the crappy at home test kit says zero. It is low enough to not allow excessive algae problems yet high enough to feed zoozanthelle. Right? That is the theory. My question is why this is showing up now. All of these parameters have been the same through out the history of this tank, except the strontium and iron. Those two have been depleted more often as of late. Iron should theoretically only affect the color of algae or Zooxanthelle, right? Also, Everyone says strontium is unneccesary. So my parameters are within the norm. The three things I am concerned with are the untested light schedule, iron and strontium. Which is likely to be the biggest complaint?

 

[reddtiger88]

As for the other items of response, I am not trying to be a know it all, I am just refuting what "I" believe. I don't think I know everything, I am just explaining my understanding of the subject. I would love to debate some aspects in the hope that you can sway my decision making. The gsp has excelled consistently, so lets remove it from the equation along with the ricordia. The zenia did not do well from the start. My theory is that the acropora next to it kept it down. Do they have that effect on zenia. As I said it was a one polyp small hitch hiker when I got the frag of acro.
Should I attempt to add more fish to raise nitrate and phosphate levels or try and feed the corals directly? Stontium ideas, anyone? Raise alk or just leave it in the lower end of the good section?

 

[DDon]

I would pull the phosphate remover since you are reading zero with your test kit and show signs of low nutrients with pale corals. I suffered from the same previously and taking gfo offline and feeding some aminos helped immensely. Not pushing aminos, had some on hand and used them at this time. Also I wouldn't raise alk very much with the low nutrient levels or your risk burnt tips or worse. 7 - 8 dKH is perfectly acceptable and a good range for low nutrient systems.

 

[reefgeezer]

...but the crappy at home test kit says zero.

Salifert nitrate test kits have enough resolution and accuracy for our purposes.

Hanna 736 ULR Checkers have sufficient capabilities for phosphate.

 

[reefgeezer]

... The zenia did not do well from the start. My theory is that the acropora next to it kept it down. Do they have that effect on zenia....

I doubt it. SPS corals are not generally aggressive. However, the Xenia can be. If anything, the Xenia would bother the SPS.

... Should I attempt to add more fish to raise nitrate and phosphate levels or try and feed the corals directly? Stontium ideas, anyone? Raise alk or just leave it in the lower end of the good section?

A combination of things can be done to raise nitrate & phosphate: add fish; feed what you have more; remove phosphate remover; dose nitrate & phosphate; & etc.. Get good test kits before making changes. IMO, there is nothing wrong with Alk on the low end of the safe range as long as it is stable.

 

[mcgyvr]

The thing is.. sometimes "stuff" happens and we don't have enough testing equipment to determine a cause..
Your parameters don't scream any issues.. Lighting hasn't changed right?
As for iron/strontium.. A lot of that is kind of an unknown too still this day as with many "hard facts" about a corals complete needs..

I just had a colony of zoas that were doing fantastic and spreading like crazy all of a sudden just melt away yesterday... It happens.. All other corals are totally fine..
Stuff just happens and we just don't know for sure..
So its really all guesses and you probably won't get a complete answer.

Even doing ICP/Triton testing isn't really conclusive and all inclusive..
Could be aluminum, copper, boron,etc... toxicity.
We just don't know..

 

[gilweb]

Triple check that Nitrate reading. I had a similar issue where everything was dull and not growing. Nitrate said low on a test kit I didn't realize expired. Bought a new Salifert and it was ~50. Got my Nitrate down and things stated perking up\growing.

 

[heathlindner25]

Triple check that Nitrate reading. I had a similar issue where everything was dull and not growing. Nitrate said low on a test kit I didn't realize expired. Bought a new Salifert and it was ~50. Got my Nitrate down and things stated perking up\growing.

Then again , I have seen 90 plus No3 and acros growing like crazy...

 

[Timfish]

Raise your PO4. Average on reefs is .13 mg/l. Corals are competing with algae for nitrogen and phosphate. Limiting nitrogen and phosphate inhibits corals as much as algae. When I help local aquarists get rid of their algae issues I either see no change in nutrient levels or increases as algae dissappears. Get Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" It's a good introduction to some of the more recent research on the competing roles of corals and algae and an excellent introduction to the roles of DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and microbes (kindle version is $10). As you start getting increased nutrient levels you need to be manually removing algae since it will respond faster than your corals will, on reefs algae eaters keep it under control. I would also be adding fast growing corals as you increase your nutrient levels to help keep your tanks equilibrium favoring corals over algae.

 

[reddtiger88]

Ok I see the merit of allowing some low levels of phosphate and nitrate, but how do you keep them low and not allow them to get out of control. Best method?


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[reefgeezer]

Ok I see the merit of allowing some low levels of phosphate and nitrate, but how do you keep them low and not allow them to get out of control. Best method?

Right now, your tank's inhabitants don't use much phosphate. I agree with Timfish that some phosphate is required, but think that any positive reading indicates that the inhabitants have more than they need. As you have expressed interest in SPS corals, IMO .03 is enough.

I would get a Hanna Checker, stop using the phosphate remover, stop dosing iron, get the Cheato fuge going, and see what the phosphate level does. From there you can decide if you need to add phosphate or export more.

If you are convinced your nitrate is truly 0, you might try feeding a little more to raise it, but that will raise phosphate also, so be aware.

 

[mcgyvr]

Ok I see the merit of allowing some low levels of phosphate and nitrate, but how do you keep them low and not allow them to get out of control. Best method?

Dosing...
Many seem to be using this as well as other chemicals..
phosphate
http://www.seachem.com/flourish-phosporus.php
nitrogen (nitrates)
http://www.seachem.com/flourish-nitrogen.php

If your system is already handling nitrates/phosphates just fine then controlled dosing should be all you need to maintain low levels without any issues..

Of course stopping/reducing GFO may be all you need for the phosphates..

 

[reddtiger88]

I can tell when the nitrate and phosphate rise in my tank. The Chaeto will respond with growth. In the beginning it would grow quite quickly. So, I feel there is no large error in the test kit. I see that new colors group from red sea tells you to dose nitrate and phosphate. I would imagine that being the best route for introducing nitrate and phosphate, but that is a tricky proposition. Trying to balance those two, specifically phosphate which rises pretty diagonally on the chart without any means of export. I am not concerned with nitrate so much as phosphate. The question being, do I swap off bi-weekly gfo to keep the levels in check or would the constant up and down swings be harmful?

 

[karimwassef]

You may have answered some of these but I couldn't find it quickly

1. Are you feeding? What are you feeding? How often?
2. What's your PAR distribution?
3. Is your tank getting fresh air - is it injected in somewhere?
4. Can you get you Alk up to 8.5 or higher (very very slowly). Can you also raise Ca and Mg?
5. What's your fuge light? What PAR do you get on it?
6. What are you using for flow?

Personal note - you don't need N or P. Corals need alkalinity, food, light and flow.

 

[reddtiger88]

You may have answered some of these but I couldn't find it quickly

1. Are you feeding? What are you feeding? How often?
2. What's your PAR distribution?
3. Is your tank getting fresh air - is it injected in somewhere?
4. Can you get you Alk up to 8.5 or higher (very very slowly). Can you also raise Ca and Mg?
5. What's your fuge light? What PAR do you get on it?
6. What are you using for flow?

Personal note - you don't need N or P. Corals need alkalinity, food, light and flow.

1. not feeding corals, just incidental bycatch. I never fed them before and they have always been fine
2. unfortunately I have no par meter. I have been trying to find someone who has a particular group of settings for these radions.
3. I live in South Florida and the fresh air is 90 degrees, so no that isn't possible. I had thought about a CO2 scrubber though.
4.I can chase whatever numbers, but they are all in acceptable parameters.
The magnesium is actually over.
5. The fuge light is a growlight led and it has proven its worth, so I wouldn't even consider that problem.
6. I am running two Jebabo rw8 wavepumps and a 1200 gph return at a four foot head.