Phosphate Control: Lesson learned

[thebanker]

Recently I replaced my GFO with Brightwell's PhosphatR. Before the replacement, my PO4 level was reading 0.04 ppm on my Hanna checker. After I replaced the media, my PO4 dropped to 0 on the Hanna checker within 3 days.

Failing to realize the error I had made caused me to lose four corals, two of them were large colonies. They all RTN'd within the following 3 days. Now I have a birdsnest skeleton and a pocillopora skeleton to decorate my dining room table.

While we're all striving to achieve ULNS, be careful when you deplete PO4 too much. I had to learn this lesson the hard way.

On the Bright(well) side, I at least know that their PO4 remover works very well!!!

 

[roberto_lopes]

I have to say.

Your colonies don't RTN'd because of depletion of PO4. Maybe some nasty component on brihtwell product did this.

Did you wash the GFO before place it on the reef?

 

[thebanker]

The Brightwell resin is not GFO and yes I did rinse it according to brightwell's instructions.

What I believe happened is this. PO4 was rapidly reduced, killing all cyanobacteria and likely a large amount of the bacteria in my system, causing a nutrient spike and possibly an ammonia spike. I say this because I observed, visually, a die off of cyano systemwide.

So the PO4 reduction was the first domino to fall, in other words. Does that make more sense?

 

[reefyourself]

Basically nutrient levels depleted too fast...and killed off some corals. I doubt the ammonia spike..was even the cause. LR has a fast way of filtering this in the tank...i mean i dump loads of food in the tank which should cause an ammonia spike and kill everything...but it doesnt and everything is striving. I had an issue before when i reduced my phospates from 0.05 to 0 in under 2 days and I had some stn...same with doing water changes on a tank thats too sterile. Learned my lesson of course...even acros need food to live!

 

[subxero]

I find that SPS are rather sensitive to sudden change in parameter. A sudden drop in Po4 can cause some TN too. :hmm6:

 

[neoalchemist74]

Theres something that happens to the bacteria on and in the surface tissues of corals when you drop po4 to fast they die or shift too rapidly causing a rapid shift that severely stressis the coral. I too have a few decorations for the table on my deck

 

[Reef Bass]

Hmm. I have a hard time believing removing phosphate rapidly harms corals directly. I've added large fresh loads of gfo a number of times without issue, except for reduced algae. Maybe there is some sort of indirect relationship which results in stress on acros?

Or, perhaps, because corals in ULNS environments are, IMHO, on the brink of metabolic starvation, and it may be that they don't have the physiological reserves necessary to tolerate environment changes that a robust coral in a more nutrient abundant environment would shrug off?

 

[wdt2000]

On the Bright(well) side, I at least know that their PO4 remover works very well!!!

And you lost corals due to its (mis)use? I did something similar with PhosGuard

 

[mab349]

Happened to me with Pura Phoslock too. Everything was stable in the system until I added it. Only thing I can attribute is fast depletion of phosphate level.

 

[Logzor]

Hmm. I have a hard time believing removing phosphate rapidly harms corals directly. I've added large fresh loads of gfo a number of times without issue, except for reduced algae. Maybe there is some sort of indirect relationship which results in stress on acros?

Or, perhaps, because corals in ULNS environments are, IMHO, on the brink of metabolic starvation, and it may be that they don't have the physiological reserves necessary to tolerate environment changes that a robust coral in a more nutrient abundant environment would shrug off?

If the corals were already stressed out a bit the drop in PO4 could have been the nail in the coffin.

I believe that people need to be more careful when they go to great lengths to remove N/P. Often times they end up starving their corals to death.

 

[thebanker]

I didn't think this would turn into a debate. Honestly this thread is the first I've seen where I've been told that dropping PO4 too fast will NOT harm coral.

 

[Mandragen]

If a coral starts to RTN can it recover without intervention if the problem is fixed, or does it continue until all dead?

 

[danil]

if its RTN you dont have any "time to recover" its fast as flame. With STN there is a chance. I know from my experience that any changes to the system UP or DOWN in any parameters effect SPS negatively. I've also learn that with undetectable NO3 and PO4 you cant keep your alk higher then 8.5. So reducing phosphate to 0 was a start of chain reaction of changes . Also I've red a lot about too much clean tanks and starvation of corals... I check the numbers and realize there is no way NO WAY you can even get close to the natural reef concentration. Your best low level NO3 test will always show 0 and it would be X100 more then in natural reef. So why this 'starvation' dilemmas coming from? I think the devil in the 'changing'.. keep low nutrient system really hard and even slow addition of food, failed dosing pump will coz a disaster. With 'normal' system error range is wider so its easier to keep system in check.

 

[neoalchemist74]

"I check the numbers and realize there is no way NO WAY you can even get close to the natural reef concentration. Your best low level NO3 test will always show 0 and it would be X100 more then in natural reef. So why this 'starvation' dilemmas coming from?"

We cannot compare our tanks to the environment on the reef. Our situation is way differant in too many ways to count. Take for example, the dkh of natural sea water typically is around 6.9 but its soo constant that ph remains stable. We just can't possibly know all of the effects these differances will have in regards to chemical and biological interplays between all of the componants involved. The best we can do is learn what works and what does'nt and try and figure out why.So if I rapidly decrease po4 and things start to die, I don't do that any more.

 

[thebanker]

I've also learn that with undetectable NO3 and PO4 you cant keep your alk higher then 8.5.

Can you link me to more information about this?

 

[thebanker]

I've added large fresh loads of gfo a number of times without issue, except for reduced algae.

Yes I have too. The media I'm using may have a higher binding capacity when compared to GFO. RHF has also speculated that it has a lower binding strength, which means that it won't hold on to phosphate as easily, hence it being sold as a regenerable media. More here.

Or, perhaps, because corals in ULNS environments are, IMHO, on the brink of metabolic starvation, and it may be that they don't have the physiological reserves necessary to tolerate environment changes that a robust coral in a more nutrient abundant environment would shrug off?

This is also possible. The corals I had that died may have had less zooxanthellae than a comparable specimen in the wild. I also think that this "brink of starvation" may have carried over to the bacterial filtration in my system. The only evidence I have is the visual confirmation of death of cyanobacteria, and the noticeable darkening and increased smell of skimmate.

 

[danil]

Can you link me to more information about this?

oh.. there are plenty just search for "ULNS Alk issue". Most post refer to ULNS system with some sort of carbon dosing (bacterial filtration) but in my case I got the same 'result' without it. I run GFO and carbon reactors with significant amount of macro algae. So tests show me 0 all the time.

 

[REEF SMAC]

What I've found personally is that a large changeout of GFO causes my Alk to plummit right away. Although my Alk level dives fast, it still takes several days longer to see my PO4 drop in my system.
I've always felt that the issues I've had in the past with large GFO changeouts were caused by this Alk swing.
I've also found that by keeping a close eye on my Alk level, by adding extra Alk (baking soda) to my system to keep my Alk levels from diving after a large GFO changeout, that I haven't had any issues with it since.

Am I the only one experiencing this phenomenon?

Did Brightwell's PhosphatR effect your Alk at all?

 

[thebanker]

PhosphatR didn't effect my alk. At least I don't think it did.

Now that I think about it, I've been running my alk between 9 and 10 dkh, I wonder if this was an issue with ULNS conditions in my system.

 

[timmytank]

Is this the liquid brightwells. If it is its lanthanum chloride and will strip lowish po4 levels to nothing very easily. Did you catch the particulate and did the water go cloudy? Zooxanthelae need a little po4. Stripping the water colum will cause rtn as you have seen unfortunatley, saying that lanthanum chloride is good when used right for some high po4 issues in small doses. Sorry for your losses