Picasso Clowns, is this the start of a wave of “designer reef fish”?

[TulsaReefer]

This is a topic I originally posted on my blog, but thought it would probably create more discussion here, so I'll post it again.

So lately I see a lot of interest in what are called “Picasso Clownfish”, which as far as I can tell are False Perculas Clowns (Amphiprion ocellaris) that have at least partially white markings. These are bed bred by Oceans Reefs and Aquariums (ORA), a captive breeder in Florida of many fish and corals. While they don’t detail the means that led them to these fish, my guess is that they’ve found that after breeding enough fish, they find “mis-bars” on occasion, and by selecting breeding these they can create a series of new clowns that carry this mis-bar trait more often. They are also breeding “naked” clowns that lack the normal bar pattern that is seen. As well as breeding ‘stubby’ clownfish, which are fish that are shorter than normal as they don’t have the normal number of vertebrae in their spine.

This all makes me wonder, was this a matter of just finding a way to clear out some mismarked fish and they accidentally found this market, or is it something that was done on purpose to produce a product that can’t can’t be replicated with lower cost wild-caught fish, and by controlling the supply they can demand higher than typical prices.

Now, I’m all for captive raised fish and corals in the hobby, and certainly support ORA in this. I have a couple of ORA bred or cultured items in my own tank, including a clam and a Green Polyp Toadstool Leather. But I’m just not sure how I feel about “designer raised” fish that come in strange patterns compared to what’s found in nature. While it certainly doesn't offend me, and I really don't care much what other people want to put in their tanks. But I can't see myself buying these fish, and it's not that I don't think they are interesting, it's just that I want my tank to be a little slice of the ocean, and these fish wouldn't be found in the ocean... But I guess each to their own. Though this leads to the another another topic I’ll write about in the future, “Why do people have reef tanks?”

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?

 

[jprince58]

Re: Picasso Clowns, is this the start of a wave of “designer reef fish”?

Hmmm... Designer fish. Didn't the Japanese already do something like this with carp? Like a couple thousand years ago (a few hundred at least) or something?

I can't say as I'm interested in these fish myself, but can understand how some people might. They're different (the fish...not the people...ok, maybe the people are, too, but I'm talking about the fish), so by definition you know they're going to attract a cult following.

Whether or not they were accidents of nature or selectively bred is irrelevant. ORA (or whoever breeds and sells these) is just trying maximize their profits. In other words, if people want it, that's what they're going to sell. Fortunately for the fish, they aren't pedigreed, otherwise the genetically "inferior" mutations would be put down.

 

[Cichlid-Dave]

Gosh selective breeding???? Well look at tattooed fish and dyed fish. Those have been in the hobby for years now(at least in fresh water).

 

[TulsaReefer]

I think Jeff is right, it's all about whatever will sell. I understand that, it's what business do to make money, and if there is a product that will sell, either you sell it or someone else will.

I guess my thought is that I already have enough trouble deciding from the hundreds of possible fish for my tank. I don't need to have another few to add to the list.

An selective breeding isn't anything new, it's been around for quite a while now (an understatement at the least). I'm just a bit surprised to see it in saltwater fish, since there is already such a variety available already.

 

[TulsaReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13925077#post13925077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cichlid-Dave
Gosh selective breeding???? Well look at tattooed fish and dyed fish. Those have been in the hobby for years now(at least in fresh water).

Your right about the dyed and tattooed fish. And while I might consider buying a selectively bred fish, I'm definitely not looking to buy anything that was died or tattooed. But then again, it goes back to someone must be willing to buy them, if not, they wouldn't bother doing it.

 

[jokeloma]

I agree and I can't add anything but I never have been interested in the LE corals end of the pool or super expensive fish (black tangs). Yes I agree there are those that will buy/sell pretty much anything.

 

[scott0615]

Makes me think..bubble eye clownfish are right around the corner? I purposely don't order a lot of animals that are always available and shouldn't {in my opinion} be available to the general public [seahorses / jellyfish / sharks, etc.]....that being said we have ordered/sold many picasso clowns. Good thread...makes me think. Thanks.

 

[TulsaReefer]

Don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong with selectively bred fish, it's nothing new, as Jeff says, they've been doing it for thousands of years with Koi. And it's quite common in the freshwater hobby in many species (probably too many to count) where they are bred to bring out one or more selective traits. My angle on starting this discussion is more as a prelude to the next discussion as to why people are attracted to some things for their tanks, and how some things are "in style" and then "out of style". Picasso clowns are just a recent example of something that is now "in style", partly because they are available, and partly because they are new and unique (key here to next discussion, the idea of new and unique).

I guess from one perspective it's a sign of a good thing, you really can't do selective breeding until you can do successful breeding in captive itself. And in clowns at least, this can be done now without quite routinely.

So to change the topic slightly, since it's proven that we are fully capable of breeding clownfish in captivity with great success, should we ban the import of wild caught clownfish, except for maybe a few to breeders to allow for more genetic diversity? I don't know, this may have essentially already happened if the economics are now where tank raised clowns are lower cost than wild caught. Not every dealer marks their fish with "tank raised", so maybe in clowns this is routinely true.

Maybe instead of a ban, there should be a tariff on any fish that can be tank raised in quantity to the point where the cost to the LFS/end customer is the same, taking away the incentive we see today to buy the wild caught because of lower cost in some cases (i.e. Bangaii Cardinals, where wild caught are lower cost than tank raised). Any funds raised could be used for reef research, captive breeding programs, etc. The longer term goal would be to help incent an industry to become broader and able to breed more species. It would be hard to determine when a species become viable to move to "tank raised only" status, but it would help incent companies like ORA to keep trying new species since they would know that they could even do lower cost species that may not be economical yet. The key to all this is economics, since it's seems that from what I see, even $10 difference in a fish (say difference between a $19 wild caught Bangaii and a $29 tank raised Bangaii) is enough to have people forget about the environmental impact of their decision (not to mention that tyipcally tank raised fish are more acclimated to captive living, eating, and generally healthier).

And if it seems like I'm rambling, I probably am, I'm sitting pretty bored right now in the DFW airport waiting for a flight back to Tulsa. I few down this morning and am heading right back, I needed two flight segments to get my frequent flier status for the next year, so I paid for a really cheap ticket down and back to get it... (Unlimited free First Class upgrades for a year, probably worth a cheap ticket down and a few hours to do it)

 

[jprince58]

I'm all for entrepreneurs and developing the next "in" thing. I think finding a way to develop these new fish (or at least market something Mother Nature developed without our helping hand) is a great example of that spirit. The part that gets my hackles up, is the marketing folderol (i.e. Barnumesque hawking) certain sellers will ultimately, predictably, employ. I can hear it now, "Step right up folks!! Be the first reefer on your street to get the new, improved, rare, limited edition [insert lineage here] Blibberfish today!!" I suppose the next step is to trademark or patent them? Sorry...getting carried away.

 

[TulsaReefer]

What bothers me more than that some company will be hawking the "Blibberfish", is that there will probably be a line of people waiting to buy them, if for no other reason to say they have one.

Strange thing about value, my company had a product on the market years ago that was much lower cost then the competitive products. It didn't sell that well, and part of it was that the price was so low that people didn't take it seriously. We raised the price, people now saw it as a "serious product" and it began to sell, even though it was essentially the same product as it had been at the lower price. I see some of this going on with the "LE" concept in reefkeeping, if you have something, give it a nice name, and price it high enough, it's self fulfilling in that you are telling people it must be "worth" that price. But is it really? Sure scarcity makes things "worth more", but is it really worth more, or is it just a perception?

 

[Cichlid-Dave]

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Or something like that! LOL

 

[Cyn_D]

I love my picassos because it's something unique that not everyone has, it's not everydaty you see one.
I can't help but to be somewhat of an impulse buyer that wants "colorful and pretty" to look at after a long day at work to relax and wind down

 

[jpitts101]

The first picasso was actually a wild caught male and bred so it could be classified as a peice of the ocean( check this month's Reef hobbyist magazine). I too like them, not because they are rare but they are beautifull. I never cared alot for them untill i seen one in person. I dont know, maybe I like them being you see perculas in every other tank and these resemble them but add a little spice.
Just my thoughts.....

 

[TulsaReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13932754#post13932754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jpitts101
The first picasso was actually a wild caught male and bred so it could be classified as a peice of the ocean( check this month's Reef hobbyist magazine). I too like them, not because they are rare but they are beautifull. I never cared alot for them untill i seen one in person. I dont know, maybe I like them being you see perculas in every other tank and these resemble them but add a little spice.
Just my thoughts.....

Great reference on the first picasso clowns. Nice article. So there is no doubt the first few fish were wild caught, I don't think we've got to the level of genetically engineering the colors in clownfish (yet). The thing is that in nature, a misbarred fish gene will typically breed out in a few generations, since they will typically breed with a non misbarred fish. In this case they selectively bred the misbarred fish to each other, to keep the traits going. This isn't uncommon, and is actually the hallmark of any selective breeding program, find a trait(s) you want, and keep breeding individuals that show that trait until you can get it consistently and then you've essentially got a bloodline that can be kept going. No different than dogs, where they will breed them for a number of generations to get the desired traits to become stable, and then you have a new breed. Problem can arise when the breeding program doesn't have enough diversity and other non-desirable traits are also brought along, but that's a different story.

And sure, there are a few, very few, misbarred fish in the wild. And it really doesn't matter to me much anyway, I'm not a purist on "my tank has to look exactly like a reef in..." since I mix things from all over the world, its certainly not like any reef anywhere. We all tend to do this unless we are pretty strict and do a single biotope system, though very few people do other than a few public aquariums.

I've been doing this hobby now for in excess of 15 years, and if you've watched it that long you'd see that for the first decade of that time we spent more effort on coming up with equipment and techniques to keep many things that at the time seemed impossible. When I got in the hobby, keeping many stony corals was considered luck at best, and very few people had any success with it. Now it's pretty much a matter of buying the right equipment, and following some fairly easy and well known techniques and you can keep almost anything. So it seems now that we have these equipment and technique challenges solved, the industry doesn't have as much "new" to sell each year, so they are coming up with either new and exotic specimens from new places (remember when Viet Nam opened up for export, some new things showed up). Or in the case of designer fish, they are finding abberations and breeding them to be available in higher quantity.

The problem I see is this, no industry like this can really regulate itself. You can't patent or trademark a fish or coral (maybe the name, but that's about it). So it's really easy for someone else to get a frag, or a breeding pair and before you know it, it's no longer uncommon and valuable, it's being sold at Petco for $12.99, and it's run of the mill. So after a while, you learn patience, and like many of the zoas that I really liked a few years ago that were selling for crazy prices (to me), I've waited, and now I can practically get these for free from other people who are already tired of them.

And for me at least, it's not that my tank has anything unique in it, I really don't have any special species that I know I'm the only one in the Oklahoma area that has. Many of my corals and fish are very "run of the mill" and ordinary. The thing that I'm proud of is that some of these corals and fish have been with me for 15 years now, and in the case of the corals, their descendants are possibly all over the state (and further). But now we are again getting in to the next topic, "Why do you have a reef tank", and "What do you find interesting about the hobby"...

 

[oddballs]

I was reading something on O.R.A (I think?) about breeding with the babies from picasso parents that do not have any the crazy misbaring. That when they are bred they produce their parents picasso misbarrs! I guess it is a recessive gene?