Pico Reef Coral Hospital. Help My Frogspawn Please

[aquascapelove]

This morning my Frogspawn was found to have a Brown Jelly Infection on the front quarter in by half in (I did not personally see this my guy found it before coming to get me from work) Immediately we went about trying to find a solution and way to treat and hopefully save one of my favorite corals in our nano reef. First stop was our lfs to ask for their opinions and recommendations. (Our lfs is ridiculously good to us, they help us with everything and one of them is a marine biologist so she knows her stuff.) We were pointed into the direction of dosing with Reef Solution to help the coral's own immune system to fight the infection. While they looked through their entire store for lugols because stock was out but they thought they might have a partial bottle they used for their in store tanks, they couldn't find it and the only thing we could find was reef dip. Most info we found said to dose with iodine (some in reef solution, and the dip is iodine)

now I know most opinion is split when it comes to removing a coral or not. I personally chose to remove it to what I'd call a Pico Reef Coral Hospital. Its a 2.5 gal with a deep blue solar flare mini 3w 6700k mid day led with a .25w 460nm moonlight. TopFin Multi-stage Internal filter rated for 10gal (not the best thing but certainly works for the temporary) an Aqueon 10w mini heater rated for up to 5 gal. Bare bottom tank with egg crate rack. Set up today.

parameters upon setup were approximately (based on previous testing of our freshly made Instant Ocean Reef Crystal Salt Water Mix)
SG 1.025
PH 8.7
KH 10.6
Calcium 440
Magnesium n/a (we don't have this test yet)
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Phosphates 0

pulled a gal for dip which translated into a 40% water change.
Added a gal of Freshly made Instant Ocean mix. (Not the reef crystal this time)

Parameters
SG 1.025
PH 8.5
KH 7.8
Calcium 420
Magnesium n/a (again cant test yet )
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Phosphates 0

The DT parameters when I removed our frogspawn
SG 1.025
PH 8.7
KH 6.7
Calcium n/a (wasn't tested, not sure if my guy ran out of time while testing or what happened)
Magnesium n/a
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 5
Nitrite 0
Phosphates 0.25

This evening I pulled the frogspawn out and did a 1/2 hour dip with 1 and 1/2 doses of the reef dip. While I was doing the dip I did a syphon "treatment" as well. Getting as much deteriorating tissue and questionable gunk off of it as I could. Honestly as weird as it is to say it looks worse (more of the tentacles are gone and maybe only 3/4 to 1/2 are left) but at the same time it looks much cleaner and better at the same time. I rinsed and placed it back into the Pico. Following with dosing the tank with the Reef Solution before testing after the water change. I plan to dose with the reef solution everyday for the next two weeks and I plan to dip the coral again if it becomes necessary but I really hope not to stress it out anymore.

Here's my questions. Is there anything else I can be doing? I know very little about fragging coral but have considered worst case scenario trying to frag it if nothing else works. It's a single head or wall right now. I don't know if it would have branched if it had stayed healthy but point is there is not the solution of fragging off affected heads. Does anyone know how I might frag it? Also is there a certain amount of time you have to let pass between dipping? I know the process stresses the coral and would like very much to not have to dip it again but if I do need to does it matter how closely together the treatments are? also how likely is it that it will make a comeback? I've read a few people have had theirs seemingly die completely and then a few months later its back healthier than ever....

Ill post pics to follow. Please any information or advice about what can help is so appreciated. I really love this coral and don't want to lose it.
Thank You

 

[aquascapelove]

Coral on March 5th while still healthy and happy

when removed prior to dip

after dip.

 

[aquascapelove]

the Pico Reef Coral Hospital set up.

 

[aquascapelove]

Updating and still looking for any advice or help anyone can give me.

This afternoon I woke up to find more jelly on my frogspawn but imo it seemed to be pretty limited and a small amount. (Only thin strips on the already empty side of the skeleton.) Pictured here.

I don't know if it was right or wrong or matters but I pulled another gal to make a new dip solution. (had planned to dip a fellow inhabitant Blue Zoa colony this afternoon since its been unhappy and not opening at all.) Dipped the frogspawn (in a separate container so no cross contaminating don't want anyone to worry that I did them in the same solution container) just long enough to syphon all the jelly off. 10 mins approximately from start to back in the Pico. Minimal new loss of tissue which makes me a little hopeful since it doesn't appear to be getting worse. (Wondering if this is really good news for it) Pictured here after being dipped and returned to tank.

I am going to test the new parameters in a moment since each time I do a dip it is essentially a 40% water change. (Hoping that maybe these daily water changes might help the frogspawn return to being healthy, does it make a difference? I kinda assume its replenishing any trace elements if anything is dropping...) I am also still daily dosing Reef Solution after each water change. (suggestion was dose for 14 days so that is the plan.)

Any input on what I could be doing different or if I'm doing something wrong please let me know and I will def correct it. I know odds are against me with the problem it has but this coral really matters to me and I can't sit back and just watch it die. I want to do anything and everything I possibly can. ANY help is sooooo appreciated thank you.

 

[aquascapelove]

Tested earlier (posting late as we went to order more tests and buy salt) all parameters are still stable and the same as previous. The only concern I have is for some reason today when I did water change I tested tank sg 1.025 I tested new mix 1.025 but I don't know or understand how when I tested while doing my other tests I got 1.031 I immediately removed some water and started adding some fresh (didn't think about the temp of the fresh water and brought my tank temp down to 65 degrees f) any ideas how my sg changed so drastically? and opinions on the effect my temp dropping may have had??? I'm hoping my inexperienced mistake didn't cause my coral any more distress. so far still looking "better" no new jelly and hasn't deteriorated any further. I would almost say it appears to be bringing its tentacles back out slowly. its still very sunken into its skeleton but does seem to be reaching back to the edges again.

Anyone have input? Please. Thank you.

 

[aquascapelove]

Update... I came home from work this morning to find my coral had more jelly on it.... unfortunately this time the jelly took all the remaining tentacle tissue with it...

I'm going to continue to water change and dose my tank... dip the coral later this afternoon and cut the excess rock and blackened destroyed skeleton off of the still healthy looking skeleton and give it a few months so it has opportunity to come back.... I've lost most hope for it but I cant let it go just yet. I want it to have all the chances it can. Still interested in any advice or help anyone might have. Thank You

 

[Puffyluv]

I would say whatever made your kH 6.7 while your pH was 8.7 would be the culprit...what this coral needs is stable and appropriate water chemistry...

 

[aquascapelove]

Really? from what I had read blunt force tramas to the coral is usually what starts the infection. However I removed the coral from the dt it was in to a pico tank essentially a coral hospital at current and that has kept a kh of 7.8 with a ph of 8.5 we did know of our kh level issues and have been dosing the dt to bring it up. I have limited knowledge being a beginner and just helping the boyfriend with the nano so I have been trying to learn quickly and do all I can to save this coral. Appreciate your input as to cause will definitely continue to work on our kh levels in dt.

 

[Puffyluv]

It doesn't have to be...simple poor water chemistry...even temperature...can have results like pictured above.

Look less to complicated explanations and more to stable and appropriate parameters...I have seen these guys recover from worse. Have even seen them pop out of skeletons that appear totally dead.

8.5 is a little high...to have such a low kH. May I ask what you are dosing with?

Your exact kH level is not important really, as long as it stays in the 7 - 12 range (I actually really believe 8+ is better) AND is in proper ratio with your calcium and magnesium. Do you dose magnesium and calcium seperate, do we have a reason to be believe the ca/mg ratio is off?

Sorry...as usual...can't answer more before asking more...

BTW...very admirable, your dedication to this little guy:

 

[aquascapelove]

In the Dt were dosing with a seachem reef builder it brings up alk only because our Calcium has always tested in the range it belongs. We don't currently have a magnesium test but I have one ordered and plan to buy it as soon as it comes in to our lfs.

My pico that I have set up for him to recover has been staying very stable but even that's kh is only 7.8 to the 8.5 but my calcium does stay between 400 and 440 should I consider dosing the pico? I didn't think the KH was low by ratio in the pico...

should we be concerned and trying to bring the ph down? I had thought that 8.5 was a correct level. However I am really new only been involved for a couple weeks. Helping and learning to eventually set up my own nano reef.

I do daily water changes on the pico to keep everything as stable as possible because of its small gal size and I dose it with reef solution after every change. I did have a really strange (to me) sg spike and made stupid mistakes when trying to correct it I brought the temp down.... really felt stupid and horrible for the extra stress on froggy (yea I been shorthanding it)

The plan of action now is I am going to pull enough to make a dip put the coral in a separate container with some tank water so I can completely change all the water in pico clean it all out and make fresh 2.5 and hopefully have cleaned out all the jelly in the current water. when it finally gave tissue when all over the tank... I was going to dip and clean it up and put it back in pico and keep my pico up and going for a few months just for it to have opportunity to come back. Any suggestions for going forward? is there anything more I could be doing?

 

[Puffyluv]

8.5 wouldn't be bad...just strange in a smaller tank that tests so low for everything else. Usually pH would test low, also. Glad you have ordered a mag test, though if you haven't been dosing it should be in good balance with your Ca...assuming the salt you use is. The reason you have to dose kH and not Ca is because when you use RO/DI to top off, this drops your alkalinity. A good trick to combat this, especially in a smaller system, is to put some buffer in your top off water.

What size is your other tank? Smaller systems are always less stable...dosing a powdered buffer in a pico sounds dangerous...I love Seachem Builder, but never dose it in anything smaller than a 20 gallon. Too much of a chance of overdose - instead would go with a liquid buffer, to keep things easier on myself - and possibly more stable.

Is there are reason you removed it from the DT? Fear of flesh rotting, maybe? Are there other LPS in the system doing well?

 

[maroonman]

By the looks of the skeleton .. you had a wall frogspawn. You said it started to receed from the back Side. ( which was the Freshly Cut side ?) . Which most likely ment ,, it had a infection from the original fragging . And it just took time to consume the health of this piece. BJ is a terrible thing to witness....Sometimes its only a matter of Hrs & a small colony will melt away.
Wall ( euphyllias ) are on my DO NOT BUY list. I personaly would like to see them stop exporting these .
You can have the most stable tank in the world ,,,, It seems a wall will decline slowly over time & drive you batty thinking something is wrong with your params. Just my .02

 

[Puffyluv]

Ooo, does look like a wall. Yes, they are tough to keep, and harder to culture!

Still, I would drive myself just a lil batty over less than 7 kH.

 

[top shelf]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2480675

Here is a link to the DT build thread. I dose seachem reef builder into he ato due to low kh. Since I have started dosing the kh has been stable at 7.2 and pH 8.3. Now that I have it stable I am going to add another 1/2 teaspoon to raise it a little more but gradual as to not shock anything.

 

[top shelf]

Also it hasn't been updated in awhile as my time has been spent researching and maintaining tanks. All thats changed is dosing and we just purchased the 120w maxspect razor.

 

[Puffyluv]

Aquascapelove = top shelf? I am confused....

 

[aquascapelove]

Thanks for all the help. I didn't know the top off would cause an alk drop definitely good to know. Ì really appreciate all the help and info. I realize that clearly this coral was a difficult one and maybe not suited for our tank had I known I would never have put it through being in ours and dying as it has. I absolutely love this coral and still hope that it will come back and thrive in our tank.

Here's a concern I have I know new skeleton and tissue has a much easier time growing new then growing back over dead stuff. So I was planning to cut the clearly dead skeleton off and the excess rock, is this going to be a bad choice

 

[aquascapelove]

No top shelf is my bf and partner in the hobby. He set up and has been doing most the work with it.

 

[Puffyluv]

Ah, gotcha! Ok...haven't added any more corals? Did that anemone survive? Shouldn't add anemones after just one week of a tank running...very poor survival.

I actually find the opposite, that it is easier for euphyllia to encrust their flesh into existing skeleton when they suffer damage. Unless algae grows over them...then I clip it off.

Am still curious over the purpose of this hospital tank? If there is any chance left for this guy (doesn't look like much, but still) it will be in your DT.

Try and take it a little slower...your tank has only been set up a month!!!! Corals really don't like brand new tanks...which is probably why he got much worse after going into a newly set up pico....

Oh and no prob...we were all newbs once! That RO/DI alk drop is one a lot of folks don't realize!

 

[aquascapelove]

we haven't added anything new. recently and our Anemones is doing really well and was added closer to a month. I didn't start learning much about any of this till the last week or so. I know that my frogspawn did seem to do much better when I moved it. However if it will have better chance in the dt I will certainly add it back. I removed it because of concern for other coral because we had been given info that the brown jelly could spread.