Pinched Mantel?

[ostrow]

Well I returned home from a week out of town to find 1 clam closed and 4 with droopy mantles. Pinched mantel? Done lots of research and this is what I am concluding, though few pics show much at all.

One thing I can say definitively, PM does not result from use of phosban and the like, because I ceased use of that product 6 weeks ago! They were all fine when it was running!

I swapped 100% of my carbon and will do a water change tomorrow. All other advice seems too contradictory and removing the clams for FW dips will stress all as they are all firmly attached to rocks.

Sigh. Hope it resolves itself...

 

[mbbuna]

whats your ALK?

 

[ostrow]

9 or so.

 

[mbbuna]

or so makes me wonder. your sig says you have an auto dose, is everything working right and have you tested since you returned?

did you have someone come take care of your tank for the week you were gone?

do you add trace elements?

how many clams are affected?

have you added any new clams in the last month or 2?

 

[ostrow]

Dosing is fine. Ca is 455 or so, Alk 9.3 or so (I say or so because even Salifert kits have substantial +/-).

Care while gone consisted of emptying skimmer, feeding frozen. Very experienced reefer did it.

No trace additions.

All 5 clams affected.

One new clam added at IMAC (and there obviously was the problem).

 

[mbbuna]

if you dont already know this is caused by an unknown protozoan. i followed every PM related thread i could find on at least 10 boards. the one link that most everyone had in common was the use of iron based PO4 removers or iron/trace elements. i also found a study linking Perkinsus hyper activity with elevated levels of iron. i know you said you stopped using phosban but there may have been excess iron still in the tank.so when you brought the infected clam in to the tank it had the iron it needed ans spread to the other clams.

i would give them all a 20min FWD and add at least 1L of carbon per 100g in a flow through container to try to remove any iron.

originally posted by Nhutty

I have studied the effects of heavy metal toxicity in humans and the role that iron chelators play (chemicals that "eat up" iron making it unable to form molecular bonds) so interestingly I was familiar with research that studied iron chelators and protozoal infections. In this case, P. atlanticus which affects the Carpet Shell Clams.

Below I linked a study from 2003 that investigates the role of 2 such iron chelators and their effect on the protozoal infections.

I dont know your scientific background so forgive me if I am speaking down to you.

Here is what the study showed:
- Iron chelators inhibited the growth of P. atlanticus
- No growth of P. atlanticus = no dead clams
- Removal of iron chelators (therefore the ability for iron to be used in the protozoa again) = protozoa grew more rapidly

So when you added the iron to your system you allowed the Perkinsus protozoa (difficult to tell which species in this case) to grow and therefore kill your clams.

There is no known "treatment" per se, but removal of iron from the system should be all that is needed.

I would recommend water changes and removal of all clams, abalone, scallops and other similar animals from your system.

Continue water changes until your iron readings are undetectable...then do MORE water changes. I would say a good water change per week for 2 months past the time when there is NO detectable iron would put you in the safe range.

From that point on be cautious in the livestock you choose. Try to buy farm raised clams as these specimens are less likely to be infected with the protozoa.

Here are 2 links for more reading. Again, I dont know your scientific background so if you need help interpreting any of the data or you want me to help "translate" some of the scientific jargon I would be more than happy to do so.

Hope I have been informative.

(this is a PDF file so you need Acrobat to read it)
http://www.ualg.pt/fcma/edge/Articles/Elan...20chelator'

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sci/shelldis/.../perkincc_e.htm

This post has been edited by Nuhtty: Jan 1 2006, 01:26 PM

 

[ostrow]

Thanks. Well I am running heavy carbon and have done several water changes since removing the phosban. My reading indicates people who have dipped have just had the problem return. But I may try.

I have Prazipro but it seems too that peoples' success with that and metronidazole are temporary.

Maybe I'll do a series of water changes and dips. Hard to get the suckers out though. Not sure how to effect that.

I like the idea of dips and bowl feeds and will try that for sure.

I'm not hopeful though, I have to say. How would one test for iron in the system? And other than water changes how does one remove it?

 

[mbbuna]

carbon will remove iron.

the Fwd is to try and kill as many of the protozoan as you can from the start then the heavy carbon to rid the tank of iron.

i got rid of it doing just what im tell you to do.

i tried prazipro, metro and it came right back

 

[ostrow]

So, you recommend:

1) FWD for what, 30min? And a bowl feed, right?

2) I already run carbon and always have through a "forced" mechanism (large PVC tube filled with Mag 3.5 pushing water through ... running continuously, changing carbon every 2-3weeks).

3) multiple water changes

Right? I can't feasibly remove the clams for more than a day (insufficient lighting for QT).

 

[mbbuna]

i would do a FWD for 20min. if you want to add a little phyto to the FWD it wont hurt any.

the way run run the carbon sounds fine.

if your ro/di tds is 0 then water changes should help.

i dont see any need to put them in a qt because the protozoan is already in the tank

 

[ostrow]

Thanks. Ok will do.

TDS was up to 2, need to swap out DI cartridge. Will do.

Really, so all you did to get rid of it in the end was carbon and water changes and dips? If I do this, how many dips do you think I'll need to do? I saw you post in many threads on many boards but never found your resolution of the problem. I saw where Barry found that it was a protozoan but it seemed metronidazole worked for him. Apparently not for others....

I have prazi and metro and am pondering adding one or the other to the dip along with DTs. Maybe FWD then into SW with the med and food then back to tank after water change.

Wondering ... the kalk I use is pickling lime, Mississippi Lime Co. Cal in Mexican food shops. Obviously food grade. But doubtful this is the source and many use this...

 

[mbbuna]

all i did was the FWD and 1gal of carbon with about 800gph running through it.

hopefully this will be the only dip, but if you see it returning give them all another dip

 

[mbunaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7484878#post7484878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
carbon will remove iron.

Carbon does not remove iron or other elements.

 

[ostrow]

Yeah, mbunaman, that's what I always thought too. Water changes will, but not carbon.

Although, Boyd's Chemi-Pure may.

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7488170#post7488170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbunaman
Carbon does not remove iron or other elements.

yes it will.it doesnt bind well but it will bind to it.thats why im suggesting to use so much carbon. carbon will react differently with different elements so you can lump them all together and say "it wont remove iron or any other elements".

how do you remove copper from a tank? coppers an element also.they use carbon for the extraction of gold, thats an element.

from this link

Carbon occurs in all organic life and is the basis of organic chemistry. This nonmetal also has the interesting chemical property of being able to bond with itself and a wide variety of other elements, forming nearly 10 million known compounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon

 

[ostrow]

Ok 2 are still droopy. How long would you wait before a second FWD?

BTW: it will remove not Iron ions (which are probably not causing anyway) but it will remove organic iron which is what we are worried about.

 

[mbbuna]

please list exactly what you have done so far.

can you post some pics of the clams

 

[ostrow]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7498520#post7498520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
please list exactly what you have done so far.

I did a 30min FWD on all clams, 2x15% water changes over 2 days and am running about 5lbs of carbon. All as discussed above. 48hrs after the FWD, two of the clams have curled mantels.

Wondering how much time before another FWD is advised.

BTW: I know you said you did one dip and they were fine, but if you read all those threads on tall the boards as I did, then you know that the dips alone have not worked long-term for most people. Improvements for several days then the symptoms return. I guess the big difference here is the carbon.

Anyway, it seems a few days in between dips is called for but wonder how long you would wait to dip again.

No pics at the moment, but one clam is certainly worse than the rest.

 

[mbbuna]

i just wanted to see what you had done so far.

i would wait at least 24hours between dips

ive read every thread that ive ever been able to find on PM or anything closely releated

 

[prugs]

When doing a FWD on a clam, do you buffer the water to the same PH? Or do you just use straight RO/DI water at the same temp?