Planning of a dream system.

[WDLV]

If you were going to break ground to build a dream-size reef tank in about two years, how would you do it???

I will need to contact an engineer for some of my measurements but here's what I have so far.
- Reinforced concrete tank L144" W96" H96" of unknown thickness sealed with epoxy resin.
- 96"x48" glass viewing pane of unknown thickness.
- I will build an extension of the basement so that only the doorway of the viewing area is connected to my home. In this way as well as with exhaust fans and weatherproof doors I hope to reduce the risk of damage to my home from evaporation.
- I will build a hinged roof with at least 12 Sun Tubes for the main source of lighting. This will also enable me to lower the viewing pane from the top.
- I have been investigating wave making devices that are used in public wave pools for circulation. I've gone over some schematics online but haven't decided on the best design yet.

I would like any ideas that will keep this project as green as possible.... and will help keep me from having to buy stock in Excedrin Migrane.

All I ask is that you please keep your criticisms constructive.

 

[wav3form]

Are there any risks of a concrete tank settling or the foundation settling and cracking the tank?

 

[WDLV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7698653#post7698653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wav3form
Are there any risks of a concrete tank settling or the foundation settling and cracking the tank?

I imagine the risks are the same as with a house. There are always little cracks. I hope to reduce the probability with the concrete reinforcing rods. I've been looking at a thread on monsterfishkeepers dot com by a guy who built a 50,000 gallon FW system about ten years ago and using that for some inspiration. Obviously not all things will be able to be carried over into a reef system, but it's encouraging to know that his has not yet cracked.


- I was thinking that sealing the inside with fiberglass would negate cracking as a potential problem, but I can't figure out how to seal the window to the fiberglass. It's kind of like having an inner tube inside a tire. If I can work out how to do it I will do it.

 

[jayo]

what are you planning to keep that requires such a big tank?

jayo

 

[Fiziksgeek]

I have seem many BIG tanks like that built from concrete, or plywood with steel frames. They are then lined with welded PVC sheets. Maybe send Bill Wann, or Massman (I think) a PM. They both have (or are building) tanks bigger then what you are thinking of.

 

[WDLV]

Your typical run of the mill fish and corals. I want to see more natural behaviors. I love the beautiful colors of the fish, but I guess that's not enough. My hope is also that I might be able to see animals breed that normally wouldn't breed in smaller aquaria. I'd like to have this be as close to a natural, self sustaining ecosystem as possible, with minimal outside intervention.

 

[WDLV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7699156#post7699156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fiziksgeek
I have seem many BIG tanks like that built from concrete, or plywood with steel frames. They are then lined with welded PVC sheets. Maybe send Bill Wann, or Massman (I think) a PM. They both have (or are building) tanks bigger then what you are thinking of.

Thanks for the suggestion.
I am staying as far away from Steel and Wood building materials as humanly possible. I had considered the PVC sheet, but I'm afraid that water would seep through the window hole and encapsulate the PVC if there are any cracks in the concrete, it will leak. I've been told that silicone will not readily adhere to plastics. Unless I can seal the glass to whatever I use to seal the cement it will be wasted money.

 

[massman]

Re: Planning of a dream system.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7698593#post7698593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WetSleeves
- I have been investigating wave making devices that are used in public wave pools for circulation. I've gone over some schematics online but haven't decided on the best design yet.

Seen this mate?
Oloid

 

[WDLV]

Nah. Not that one. That's pretty cool... and green. The pics show that it works but I'm not quite grasping how it works. I wish they had a video.

This was the best one I'd seen so far.
Wave making device.

 

[H20ENG]

I've sealed B I G tanks before using epoxy, and once with liquid rubber (Hecht rubber from aquatic eco systems). I liked the rubber for its flexibility, and boy was it sticky!
However, now that Sanitred is on the market, Id run to buy that stuff. Basically like the liquid rubber, but nowhere near the VOC nastiness I had to deal with. (I thought I was going to blow up the building, it was like working inside a laquer thinner drum!)

Use thick walls, a lot of rebar, and a cement -heavy concrete to get like 6-8000 psi, or higher. You want this stuff strong. We drilled the concrete and used 316SS anchor bolts to attach the acrylic after sealing. Then resealed over the edge of the panel. We also epoxied over the bolts for good measure.

A good surge cn be had with a large head tank and a 44" - 6" pneumatic valve.

My buddy at the Monterey aquarium has an Oloid, and they are great for surface agitation, but not very good at overall movement.

When you get to tanks this large, you need a larger surge to be effective. You can do it with pneumatics, blowers, or propellers, too.
Watching this one. LMK if I can help
Chris

 

[WDLV]

Thanks for the advise! I had not considered a rubber product as a sealer. That would effectively eliminate the probability of seepage around the glass.

 

[falcondob]

Out of curiosity, what do use for heating and/or cooling in a tank that big? Is it an issue?

 

[WDLV]

Heating I haven't figured out yet, but I'm thinking along the lines of the heaters that are used to heat chemical vats. Though I'm not sure whether they might be prone to releasing heavy metals into the water.
Cooling will be done via geo-thermal cooling. For those not familliar, the concept is that you run a long coiled hose into a well. Contact with the earth around the hose removes heat from the water as it passes through the hose.

 

[H20ENG]

I'd build a cheap solar collector first , with an electric or even gas fired backup.
We had a 40' holding tank for sharks that we allowed the Marine Mammal Center to use for rehabilitating a dolphin. They brought in 2 large pool heaters with Ti coils that ran on propane.

Many systems this large (greenhouse) will have the room gas heated. There is a thread going on about IF or WHY heating the air is more efficient.

It may not be, but its a way to use one heater to heat a bunch of tanks that may or may not be connected.

 

[massman]

Re: Planning of a dream system.

If you were going to break ground to build a dream-size reef tank in about two years, how would you do it???

With LOTS of planning and advice

I will need to contact an engineer for some of my measurements but here's what I have so far.
- Reinforced concrete tank L144" W96" H96" of unknown thickness sealed with epoxy resin.
Engineers specs here

- 96"x48" glass viewing pane of unknown thickness.
1 3/4"-2" acrylic

- I will build an extension of the basement so that only the doorway of the viewing area is connected to my home. In this way as well as with exhaust fans and weatherproof doors I hope to reduce the risk of damage to my home from evaporation.
Sounds good. Perhaps look at allowing provision for an air exchanger in the future if it's not as effective as planned.

- I will build a hinged roof with at least 12 Sun Tubes for the main source of lighting. This will also enable me to lower the viewing pane from the top.
Perhaps one large acrylic skylight might be a better/cheaper option? Not sure what you mean by lowering the viewing pane? Raise the waterline above the panel?

- I have been investigating wave making devices that are used in public wave pools for circulation. I've gone over some schematics online but haven't decided on the best design yet.
I would like any ideas that will keep this project as green as possible.... and will help keep me from having to buy stock in Excedrin Migrane.
All I ask is that you please keep your criticisms constructive.
Sure

 

[WDLV]

Re: Re: Planning of a dream system.

Re: Re: Planning of a dream system.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7719270#post7719270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by massman

- 96"x48" glass viewing pane of unknown thickness.
1 3/4"-2" acrylic


- I will build a hinged roof with at least 12 Sun Tubes for the main source of lighting. This will also enable me to lower the viewing pane from the top.
Perhaps one large acrylic skylight might be a better/cheaper option? Not sure what you mean by lowering the viewing pane? Raise the waterline above the panel?

Thanks for the tips.

I do not want to use plexi for the viewing pane because I want to keep this system going for 20-30 years and don't want to see the yellowing, microcracking, potential for scratches and higher maintenance from corraline that is associated with plexiglass.... and it costs more.

The reasoning behind the sun tubes is that they actually offer greater intensity throughout the day. A skylight lets light in at an angle that is inversly proportional to the direction that the sun is in at a given point throughout the day. Sun tubes collect the light regardless of the position of the sun and focus it downward. I realize this will cost more, but it seems to be worth it when you consider they cost the same as the average halide setup and you never have to replace the bulbs or pay for the electricity to run them. Perhaps I could do a number of thin skylights running the width of the tank then have the suntubes installed between them. That way I have the intensity and light will hit the corals form different directions too???

Oh and by lower the viewing pane, I meant during installation. I guess the hinges would be an unnecessary feature if I just install it before the roof is built. Duh.

 

[WDLV]

H2OENG,
Thanks for the tips.

 

[massman]

OK so you wannt to go glass.
You will be more than likely be looking at a trilaminar sheet 45mm thick.
If you wanted to do this, I'd recommend going with starfire sheets 15mm thick.
Not sure if it would be cheaper though. An acrylic sheet 8x4x2" should run about $6K-$7K I think. Glass wouldn't be far behind.
Also you want to get the best in the business. I have seen delaminations occur before, and believe me you do NOT want that to happen.

I've always been a fan of glass, but for my big tank I'm going acrylic.
Firstly clarity through 3" cannot be beat, secondly it will be a hell of a lot lighter, and most importantly, if something happened (read here young children playing around etc), and the glass cracked (if I went with glass), whoever is in front would be dead. Way too much water pressure and flying glass equals catastrophe.
I figured there is a reason why public aquariums are acrylic, and it has to be safety based.

I

 

[massman]

Lost some of my post

As far as yellowing and microcracking goes, most decent manufacturors have a 20 year or so guarantee, so this should not be an issue.

Having said all that, if you ever had to replace the panel, wouldn't you rather replace acrylic than glass?

Scratches are inevitable though. Given the fact that we will be diving in the tank, the thought of me scratching glass by mistake would be far worse than acrylic. Acrylic can be buffed out.

Not trying to sway you here, just giving food for thought.

 

[WDLV]

45mm equates to about 1.77 inches... not much difference in thickness.

Pardon the ignorance but I presume that trilaminar means several sheets pressed together???

I was thinking low iron glass for certain.

I'm not planning to keep a billiard table in the same room or anything. Would there really be that much probability of a safety issue with 1.77" glass?
I don't want to shrug off safety but at the same time I'm trying to look at the long haul. I know the acrilic would be good for at least ten years.
I'm concerned that in 15 years I would wind up with something yellow, cracked and scratched.
Decisions.... Decisions....

The only thing I can figure is that I could plan to leave the reef a little below the bottom of the window. That way if I need to do any repairs (god forbid) that I might have the option of keeping the system running with a lower water level.