Please help me with my ill tinker's butterflyfish

[Tanu]

I am merely making the point that a fish that is comfortable is more likely to eat.
Here is the biological explanation as to why you do not want to increase temp on a fish that has not eaten for week and a half after fighting a severe parasitic infection.
A fish that is running out of reserves has more than likely used all fat reserves and now begins to use organ and muscle tissue for metabolic processes. The temperature increase also speeds up its metabolism, making the strain on organs and muscle more diare, all while making it more uncomfortable with temps that put more stress on the fish. Gills are damaged and prone to bacterial infection. Less oxygen is received to key organs due to this damage and now due to the lower O2 concentration in the water assuming agitation remained static. Less oxygen inhibits the fish from functioning and behaving normally. Thus it will continue down the road of no return. What you really need is more time for the animal to feel better, to heal and feel normal, and what the temp increase does is give you less time, more discomfort.

I do see what you mean, although I don't worry too much about bacterial infection at this moment, as it is also being treated with a broad-spectrum antibiotic (Furaltadone, most large importers here use this as well). The reason I went with the temperature increase is because the vet recommended it. If it does not work, I will go back to the lower temperature because I completely agree with your points. I really don't want to be stubborn and appreciate your help, please accept my apologies if it appears to be otherwise.

Summarising you state that you think the fish will get to eat if just left 'in peace' in the hospital tank (and with the lower temp you mentioned)?

What did Fenner suggest?

Do you have access to live blackworms, when my butterflyfish is ill it's the only thing he'll still eat.

Bob Fenner suggested to stop the treatment and put the fish back in the display. I wish I would agree with him; the reason I removed the fish from the display to the hospital tank is that it didn't eat anymore. I did (and still do) not really worry about a few spots of Ich, they normally disappear again. The reason I started the treatment is the fact it didn't eat no more and I had the feeling its disease might be (part of) the cause, as it also went to the cleaner goby and -shrimp much more often than it used to. If I would believe the fish would eat again in the display tank I would move him to the display right away...

Indeed I got some live blackworms last Friday, as my LFS also suggested this. So far I have tried offering some blackworms multiple times but they are completely ignored... I keep the blackworms in the fridge (you should hear my girlfriend... ) and take a few worms and let them sink in the hospital tank, I assume this should be the way to do this?

About the fish poop: I have never put fish poop or any other poop under the microscope before, but I was surprised by the large crystal-like structures visible in the pictures. The turd (yes, I said that ) was also quite hard and when laying down the cover glass on the slide it felt like there where grains of sand in between. I am not sure how normal these crystals are, but I can imagine they would irritate the fish's intestines... The books I have do not mention these crystals and the few pictures of slides with fish poop do not show them either...

 

[Fishfirst]

Yes I believe that if undisturbed and continued with treatment that it gives the fish the best chance of survival. Now if the fish no longer exhibits symptoms for a week or so, I would remove medication as copper is an appetite suppressant.

 

[Fishfirst]

Although I would say that Tinkeri butterfly fish tend to be tolerant of copper based medications.

 

[Tanu]

After all the helpful suggestions I feel I need to update all of you on the situation. The ick has gone. The fish still does not eat.

I have tried live blackworms, live bloodworms, live Mysis, live feeder shrimps, live clams, frozen clams, live brine shrimp and all foods it used to eat. After removing all the copper, I profilacticly treated against worms using a commercial available mix of praziquantel and levamisole. When all medicines were removed from the water, I introduced some super fresh Indonesian live rock and a cleaner shrimp: the rock so the fish has something to graze on, the shrimp to relieve stress when it felt it needed a 'back scratch'. Rock and shrimp are doing fine.

I happened to find a turd and put it under the microscope: no worms/microorganisms.

As Fishfirst suggested, I switched to water changes using newly prepared water instead of using water from the display tank. After the temp. rise, I slowly lowered the temp again, again after discussing this with the fish-vet. As all this did not bring the desired results, the fish vet and I could think of one more thing: something stuck in its gullet or mouth. As the fish-vet lives in another area of my country, he suggested I should call my own vet to ask him if he wanted to take a look inside the mouth with a device normally used to inspect ears and so on. To my surprise, my vet also works for the zoo nearby and has done surgery and research on fish before so I went to the vet with my fish... Hoping he would find a small piece of rock or so. Unfortunately, nothing to be found.

When I got home, I decided I should take the plunge and force-fed the fish a slurry of fish-food, vitamins, amino acids and some grains of dextrose. I added the dextrose with the hope that that would cause a spike in it's blood sugar level, followed with a drop in the blood sugar level leading to an increased appetite.

I can tell you force feeding a fish is not only stressful to the fish, but I feel I got some food inside its stomach. Unfortunately, the fish still does not eat. I have one more resource (owner of a fish store in Belgium who is often being referred to as a very good fish doctor) to see if he has more ideas. Otherwise I will see how the fish will react to a fresh oyster.

If all this does not work, I feel I should give the fish one more force-feeding, a few days of rest and than back into the main tank, with the hopes it will either find something to eat or will be tempted to eat when it sees the other fish eat.

Any ideas or suggestions? I'm nearly out of options...

 

[tylersarah]

My feeling is to put it back into the display. Stress alone is a killer.

 

[vitz]

My feeling is to put it back into the display. Stress alone is a killer.

+1

loss of appetite can be caused by many things-among which is failure or deterioration of an internal organ-no practical way to diagnose that, or fix that, unfortunately. nearly everything that can happen to us, can happen to a fish-from kidney damage to cancer, ulcers, etc., in *addition* to the fish specific issues like their various parasites.

after a point you're really better off 'biting the odds bullet', x-ing yer fingerz, and just trying to make the fish as comfortable as you can. continual insisting on taking steps that may not be doing any good doesn't serve the fish or you, very well, imo/ime.

if you've done pretty much all you can do, then you've done pretty much all you can do-even if the fish doesn't make it, you can't fault yourself for not trying. and you still might get lucky

has the fish lost weight/fat deposit volume in the forehead area and belly (pinching) ?

 

[Tanu]

Thanks for all the advice... I released the tinker back into the main reef to see it being slaughtered by the largest gem tang and the mitratus butterfly. Fortunately I could remove the tinker again. I placed it together with some high-quality live rock, corals and algae in a large container in the large reef, hoping the visible presence of the other fish would entice it to eat. After about a week, I saw the tinker's health declining. A few days later, the fish was clearly dying. After observing this for one day, I decided to humanely help the fish go to fish heaven.

It was very sad to loose this battle, especially the first few weeks I felt I was going to be able to help the fish to live many more years.

I think I did everything I could have done, but as fish are built nearly as complex as humans, nearly as many things could go wrong.

 

[vitz]

i used to tell customers and friends i've helped over the years that our jobs would be *a lot* easier if someone would invent a small, hand held, water proof x-ray machine, heh.