Plumbing plan, concern with return pump.....

rovster

Active member
Hi all. I will be starting my plumbing soon and I wanted to run it by the experts for some critique. One of my biggest concerns is my return pump will not be able to handle this set-up. Right now, I have an Eheim 1262 pump I have set aside for my return. However, after reading some posts, it may not be enough to handle the manifold. The total head from return area in sump to the tank rim is about 44" so its not a long run. I need to stay with an internal pump due to space issues. I was thinking a Waterblaster 5000 or even 3000 might be better suited for the application. If I end up going with a larger pump, I will add one outlet to the manifold to feed back into the sump to avoid restricting the return. Sump is a 40BR with refuge. Skimmer is a SRO 2000. Total water volume is in the 120-130 range.

Here is a drawing of my plan.

IMG_1402.jpg


I know I need to add a ball valve after the return in case I need to service the pump. As far as the reactor feeds, I'm torn between using gate valves or JG valves. I'm open to suggestions. I appreciate any feedback and suggestions. Pictures of your own set-ups would be great. Thanks!:beer:
 
Hi all. I will be starting my plumbing soon and I wanted to run it by the experts for some critique. One of my biggest concerns is my return pump will not be able to handle this set-up. Right now, I have an Eheim 1262 pump I have set aside for my return. However, after reading some posts, it may not be enough to handle the manifold. The total head from return area in sump to the tank rim is about 44" so its not a long run. I need to stay with an internal pump due to space issues. I was thinking a Waterblaster 5000 or even 3000 might be better suited for the application. If I end up going with a larger pump, I will add one outlet to the manifold to feed back into the sump to avoid restricting the return. Sump is a 40BR with refuge. Skimmer is a SRO 2000. Total water volume is in the 120-130 range.

Here is a drawing of my plan.

IMG_1402.jpg


I know I need to add a ball valve after the return in case I need to service the pump. As far as the reactor feeds, I'm torn between using gate valves or JG valves. I'm open to suggestions. I appreciate any feedback and suggestions. Pictures of your own set-ups would be great. Thanks!:beer:

I would agree that the 1262 is not enough pump your system with or without the manifold. Eheims do not handle head pressure well, and that 44" by the time you are done will be considerably higher due to friction loss. Your base flow rate with out branches will most likely be in the 5 - 600gph range, and for 120 gallons that is a bit light. Add a branch with a "fuge" feed and you are down quite a bit further.

If you upgrade your pump, adding a loop return to the sump is a complete waste of time. Your fish and critters need the water--send it all to the tank where it needs to go--save that for the reactors and "fuge."

I developed a liking for Sicce pumps, just a " for what it is worth" comment.

On the reactors, what flow rate will they need will say what fittings would be best to use. If the reactor does not need a flow rate possible in 1/2" gate valves it would be a waste to use them--if 1/2", 3/8", or 1/4" tubing will do the job. Makes the decision process less of a chore. Nice bright PVC valves look "cool" but might just be unnecessary. Tapped end cap with jg valve will cost less, and function just as well.

Just as an after thought, you are setting up reactors based on what? It is a new system, and you don't have any idea if they will be needed. Common use, does not mean they are needed.
 
First of all, thanks. Yes this is a new system. Since I'm delving into more stonies, I'm pretty sure I want to have a GFO reactor, either to run full time, or when I need it. The carbon reactor will likely not be run full time, but again, a nice to have in case I need it. The extra outlet was for a possible whatever-I-may-want anything down the line.

Currently in my nano, I run Purigen and CPE full time. I'm just taking that and applying it differently in the new tank. My nano I would consider to be quite successful.

With regards to the extra sump feed, the dump in the sump idea I got from one of your posts. In case I am not using the reactors, and I choose a slightly oversized pump (say a waterblaster 5000), I would divert some of the flow back instead of full blast into the display or choking off the return. If that is not necessary, then I'll scrap it. The display will have 2 MP40s, so I'm not worried about the return flow doing anything for the display, but at the same time, I want an adequate turnover in the sump.

I'm pretty sure GFO and carbon reactors don't need a ton of flow. I'll look at specific numbers, but most are powered with pretty tiny pumps.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I'll look into the sicce pumps as well. It seems the waterblasters get good feedback, and they happen to make a couple that would fit the bill for me. My skimmer also has a bubble blaster pump (not that it matters, but I've read they are quiet).
 
Bump for some more opinions. Anyone think the 1262 is a waste of time? Is the WaterBlaster 5000 overkill (FWIW, it is about 1300gph / 11ft head). I'm no expert on plumbing. If I go with the 5000, I will use 1.25" plumbing vs the 1" for the Eheim, so I'd like to make the correct decision now. Thanks in advance!
 
What overflow are you using? If it is a stock MegaFlo type and you try and cram 600 gph through it you may be disappointed. It will probably be loud and may flush. Ideally you only need 3-5x the display volume for sump turnover. Many of us get by with less. I run a Mag3.5 on my 110 through 1" pipe and it provides more than enough flow for the sump. I also run my CaRx off of it. The 1262 will work fine but I would go with the WB3000 just for the electrical savings.
 
What kind of flow does the 1262 put out at the 4' of head you have?

It doesn't look like you have much other demand on it. Only two 1/4" lines? Also, if you don't know if you will need them or not you could just put a valve right before your manifold and then add it later if you need it.

The water change outlet is nice. I put one on the overflow drain line for my tank. It's probably a small difference, but then you are pulling out pure skim instead of already filtered water. Just a thought.
 
What kind of flow does the 1262 put out at the 4' of head you have?

It doesn't look like you have much other demand on it. Only two 1/4" lines? Also, if you don't know if you will need them or not you could just put a valve right before your manifold and then add it later if you need it.

The water change outlet is nice. I put one on the overflow drain line for my tank. It's probably a small difference, but then you are pulling out pure skim instead of already filtered water. Just a thought.

Depends on how the plumbing is configured. Eheims do not handle head pressure well, and in real world use, fall off rather quickly. 4' of static lift, can easily turn into 6, 7, 10' of head pressure, depending on how you run the plumbing. You would probably have to intentionally design for 10', to get there--just sayin.

OP: redirecting water from the return back into the sump (other than to feed a fuge) is worse than under pumping the system. It accomplishes nothing, but wastes electricity. If you have "too much flow" (to go along with the "you only need x gph--which is an antiquated "rule of thumb",) send it to the tank--that is where it is needed. You don't design flow for the sump, you design the flow for the system, and design the sump for the flow. Your system will benefit from the additional flow. Yes, you can mix the crud in the tank with power heads, where it turns to nitrates, or you can remove it as quickly as possible, with overflow, drain, sump, skimmer, return--at higher flow rates.
 
The tank will be drilled for 3 1" bulkheads (2 drain, 1 return). I will be running a Herbie design. The drain lines will be 1", but I've also considered 1.25". It will be a full syphon, and I plan a gate valve on the syphon line to tune. I want to assume I will be running the (2) 1/4" lines to the reactors, and possibly a third line. The way everthing is configured, the return will be almost a straigh shot to the tank. I will T off the return and reduce to have the flow through to the sump, and the manifold. I plan to keep the manifold low (just above sump) to not add any undue head pressure. I have no doubts that the Eheim would be fine for the fuge and return, what is concerning me is feeding those reactors. I know its not a lot of flow, but I know that manifold is going to create some resistance. I appreciate the input. I know its not an exact science (well maybe it is, but I'll never understand it). I will trust you guys' gut feelings, since they will be more accurate than mine. I don't want to go with the WB3000. I know its more efficient, but its not that much more pump than the brand new Eheim I already have. Thanks again guys!
 
If this helps, I used the headloss calculator to calculate what it would be to have the pump with a straight shot back to the tank. (1 ball valve, 4 unions, 2 45s). I used the Mag 9 because it has similar stats, although a little bit more pump than the eheim. Here is what the calculator said:

Total losses are 4.82 feet of head pressure, or 2.08 PSI. with a flow rate of 775 GPH. Process took 100 iterations.

Now I have to figure out what the manifold, reactors, and fuge line will suck out of this system. Does this help?
 
Stay with the Eheim since you already have it, many people use the 1262 and run reactors as well. Use a 1" return line and it will help.
 
If this helps, I used the headloss calculator to calculate what it would be to have the pump with a straight shot back to the tank. (1 ball valve, 4 unions, 2 45s). I used the Mag 9 because it has similar stats, although a little bit more pump than the eheim. Here is what the calculator said:

Total losses are 4.82 feet of head pressure, or 2.08 PSI. with a flow rate of 775 GPH. Process took 100 iterations.

Now I have to figure out what the manifold, reactors, and fuge line will suck out of this system. Does this help?

The calculator is inaccurate, because you have to have a flow rate to start with, before you can calculate the friction loss in a system. Because the friction loss varies with flow rate, it is not a constant. Therefore you cannot calculate the friction loss, because you do not know the flow rate. Friction loss also varies with pipe size. Good ball park is vertical lift + 2 feet.
 
Hey Uncle, thanks for the responses. It was some of your responses in other threads that made me question the Eheim to begin with. Brand names aside, what pump stats and what max head would you be looking for to accomplish what I'm trying to do? Then maybe I can research some different brands and go from there.
 
The calculator is inaccurate, because you have to have a flow rate to start with, before you can calculate the friction loss in a system. Because the friction loss varies with flow rate, it is not a constant. Therefore you cannot calculate the friction loss, because you do not know the flow rate. Friction loss also varies with pipe size. Good ball park is vertical lift + 2 feet.

Isn't that what the iterations in the calculator are for? I don't know how it's written (code), but if it's doing iterations it would seem like it is assuming a flow, calculating the head loss, using the new reduced flow, recalculating the losses, etc.
 
I have a 150DD and am running a manifold almost exactly like your planning except for the water change out. I run a Laguna MaxFlo 1500 to feed a GFO reactor, BP reactor(not running yet as the tank is new), fuge and the main return up to the tank by way of a 3/4" Sea Swirl. I built my manifold for my old 75 knowing it would be brought along to the new 150DD and originally tried to run it off of a Mag 9.5 but it was a little too much for that pump but the MaxFlo 1500 runs it no sweat, while being far more efficient and super quiet and not to mention cheap. The Mag 9.5 is probably a little stronger than the Eheim 1262 so I'd say plan on going with a bigger pump if that is your desired set-up for the future. A manifold and all the valves etc. will sap the power of the pump not insignificantly and it's hard to really calculate exactly how it will all work out so it's better to plan a slightly bigger pump than you really need and just valve it back a bit IMHO.

Here is what my manifold looks like (probably not the most efficient design in all 1" spa flex and 1" T's and elbows etc. but it does the job for me well);

7187711207_1cb2e0d550_c.jpg
 
I have a 150DD and am running a manifold almost exactly like your planning except for the water change out. I run a Laguna MaxFlo 1500 to feed a GFO reactor, BP reactor(not running yet as the tank is new), fuge and the main return up to the tank by way of a 3/4" Sea Swirl. I built my manifold for my old 75 knowing it would be brought along to the new 150DD and originally tried to run it off of a Mag 9.5 but it was a little too much for that pump but the MaxFlo 1500 runs it no sweat, while being far more efficient and super quiet and not to mention cheap. The Mag 9.5 is probably a little stronger than the Eheim 1262 so I'd say plan on going with a bigger pump if that is your desired set-up for the future. A manifold and all the valves etc. will sap the power of the pump not insignificantly and it's hard to really calculate exactly how it will all work out so it's better to plan a slightly bigger pump than you really need and just valve it back a bit IMHO.

Here is what my manifold looks like (probably not the most efficient design in all 1" spa flex and 1" T's and elbows etc. but it does the job for me well);

7187711207_1cb2e0d550_c.jpg

Thanks, that helps. I've seen your manifold before and I was planning on something VERY similar. Thanks for the feedback. If you had trouble with the Mag9, no way the eheim will run this. The WB5000 is very similar to your Laguna in terms of power, so I guess I'll look at that. Does it make a difference the size of the display? How much does that SeaSwirl eat up? My display will be a little over 100 gallons (52 x 26 x 19tall). I guess I'll try to unload my Eheim then. Someone is about to get a good deal, LOL!:headwalls::)
 
Thanks, that helps. I've seen your manifold before and I was planning on something VERY similar. Thanks for the feedback. If you had trouble with the Mag9, no way the eheim will run this. The WB5000 is very similar to your Laguna in terms of power, so I guess I'll look at that. Does it make a difference the size of the display? How much does that SeaSwirl eat up? My display will be a little over 100 gallons (52 x 26 x 19tall). I guess I'll try to unload my Eheim then. Someone is about to get a good deal, LOL!:headwalls::)

I'm sure the Seaswirl eats up a little head as it alone is two 90˚ elbows back to back and I have another plumbed right behind it on the return. Your tank is smaller than mine but it all depends on how much you want running though your fuge and sump. Also I don't think you need a gate on the fuge output as it is far from a precision adjustment to adjust flow there and a ball would be fine. I do run gates on my reactors after the true union balls on the manifold so I have the ability to remove the whole assembly and get the better precision for the reactors etc.

You could try setting it all up and run it with the 1262 as you already own it to see what's what. You never know it might be enough flow to make you happy but that said I would plan on having it easy to switch out and add something more powerful if you conclude it just isn't cutting it. You might be able to squeeze 250-300 gph back up to the tank but like I said plan on going bigger from the get go. That said I made a comparison chart a while back for my Laguna 1500 vs. the WB-5000 and WB-7000 when I was deciding what to do and the Laguna has more flow at 7ft than the 1262 has at zero and the way I have it running on my tank it looks like ~600 GPH coming off the return.
 
I kind of don't want to experiment, since the Eheim is brand new in box, never seen water, so it might sell easier, LOL! The WB5000 is a little less pump than your laguna both in max flow an head pressure. Man, decisions, decisions.....I just want to make sure I get adequate flow through the sump and fuge so my skimmer and fuge actually have an impact on the water quality. I don't need a blasting return since the MP40s should be more than enough, but I don't want a trickle either. I appreciate the input. The other thing I could do is scratch the manifold idea and just run the reactors on another pump, but I like the simplicity of running everything off one pump.
 
Ah, I thought the Eheim was something you already had in use. In that case definitely get something stronger as the brand new pump will get you a better price. Just FYI at head the Laguna 1500 is even stronger than a WB7000 but it is far cheaper than even the WB5000. I made a DIY union output for mine but they have 1.5" threaded adapters now that you can plumb right into a PVC fitting. The only downside is they need some kind of rubber pad to run on because they come out of a pond cage and they really can only run in-sump. That said they are super efficient and cheap. For the price they can't be beat IMHO. I think mine is only running at like 67W with the added head etc. which is impressive.
 
If this helps, I used the headloss calculator to calculate what it would be to have the pump with a straight shot back to the tank. (1 ball valve, 4 unions, 2 45s). I used the Mag 9 because it has similar stats, although a little bit more pump than the eheim. Here is what the calculator said:

Total losses are 4.82 feet of head pressure, or 2.08 PSI. with a flow rate of 775 GPH. Process took 100 iterations.

Now I have to figure out what the manifold, reactors, and fuge line will suck out of this system. Does this help?

I would be curious to know what size pipe diameter you fed into the calculator. The quirk with the larger Mag pumps, is you have to use 1.5" pipe on the outlet, to get the pump to operate on the flow curve.
 
Isn't that what the iterations in the calculator are for? I don't know how it's written (code), but if it's doing iterations it would seem like it is assuming a flow, calculating the head loss, using the new reduced flow, recalculating the losses, etc.

Before the advent of the personal computer, the Hazen-Williams formula was the most used with piping engineers. They like it due to the relative simplicity of the calculations. However, it was inherently inaccurate, due to the reliance on a friction factor that could vary anywhere from 80 - 130, depending on the pipe material, pipe size, and fluid velocity.

Another formula for calculating head loss, is the Darcy-Weisbach fromula. It is more difficult to work with, however, with computers, it is now the standard with hydraulic engineers. It still lacks a provision for accurate determination of the friction factor, though.

The friction factor can be determined with accuracy using a Moody Chart, which is based on the Cole-White equation for calculating the friction loss for turbulent flow in a pipe. Due to the structure of the equation it requires an iterative solution. The result is plugged into the Darcy-Weisbach formula. You come up with a fairly accurate result.

Since the calculator is using an iterative process, I would think it is plugging the result from the Cole-white equation into a Darcy-Weisbach equation, or a derivative of them. But I could be way wrong. Still, my question would be: But where is it getting the velocity (flow rate) from?

The thing is, engineers don't grab a pump and say "what will this pump do in this piping system?" You don't need math (well complex math anyway) because the answer can be directly measured. Apply it to the pump curve--Idealized as the pump curve may be--and it gives you the total head loss of the system--subtract the vertical lift, and you have the friction loss (in vertical feet)

At the same time, a hobbyist asking what will this pump do in this system, is an unanswerable question. It can be directly measured, by testing, certainly. But in the theoretical realm, it is unknown. Why? Because you don't have flow rate. The only thing that is constant at any point in a piping system is the flow rate, everything else varies with the flow rate.

A pump curve cannot be used. The pump curve starts at 0' TOTAL head loss, and pump output decreases as TOTAL head loss increases, but there is no friction factor involved e.g. no pipe. As soon as you add a 1" piece of pipe, the pump still flows on the flow curve, however friction loss has been introduced, and head height has increased, so the total head loss will be greater than 1". (With some pumps, even the wrong pipe size will complicate the problem.) Therefore, you don't know the velocity (flow rate) so the total head loss cannot be calculated, because it is based on the velocity. It can only be guessed at. You have introduced error to the equation, it can be insignificant, (the 1" piece of pipe) or it can cost you 5 or 600 gph, or more, depending. My classic real world example being the 1500gph pump @ 14' vertical lift, by the flow curve, operating at shut off head height of ~42'--with only a 14' vertical lift. (A basement sump, over under around and through piping system)

In actual practice, these things are applied with a specific flow rate in mind, and a specific plumbing system at least designed, and the engineer can tell you "You need to use pump B, because pump A won't do it." The system can then be redesigned so pump A, will get the job done: increase the pipe size, reroute it, less fittings, what have you. Even then pump A may not do it. So pump B it is. They are asking what do I need to get the water to go this fast, in this piping system.

It is not all that complicated really, as the Darcy-Weisbach and Cole-White formula results can be found in "friction loss charts," reducing the mathematics to simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. The only problem with that, is the charts are generally separated by 5 gph calculation points. i.e. 5, 10, 15, 20 gpm etc. (gallons per minute) so falling in between gives an error factor. The result you are looking for, is I need a pump that will push X gallons per minute @ Y' total head (vertical lift + friction loss converted to vertical lift.)

IMO, this is a better way to approach the problem, and it will give better final results, and then get opinions on the quality of a selection of pumps that you already know will do what you want them to do. Adding branches complicates things a bit, but still--logically-- working through the simple math will give you the result you need. Then when someone suggests you use a pump that you know does not have enough umph, it makes the selection process less of a chore. Eheim may be a good pump, but it may not do what YOU need it to do, Mag pumps might be good pumps, but unless you use 1.5" pipe, it won't do what you want it to do--and even then it still might not.
 
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