Plumbing Question!! Which Return Pump?

[ArmanS]

Hello all. I am planning on plumbing my system in the coming week or so and I am trying to decide my return pump.

Here is some info on my system.

I have a 150g Display, then behind it is the fish room which holds the sump as well as a 60g frag tank. I have to plumb in a JBJ 1/3HP Chiller, as well as 2-3 Reactors for Carbon/GFO/Pellets, as well as I need 1 outlet to feed my CO2 Rx.

Here are some photos to help, this is the DT.



Here is the fish room / Sump, the frag tank will sit on the stand above the sump, as well was the CO2 Rx and the Chiller. The Media Reactors will sit in the sump in one of the chambers.



It's about 11' total horizontal run, and about 5' total of vertical run. I would have 2 3/4" returns on the frag tank, 1x 1" return on the display tank, and 5x 1/2" outlets for chiller and reactors.

Ideally I would want one return pump to run all this, I want an in sump pump. Price is not a big issue. I want it to be 1 pump, quiet, reliable, and low power consumption.

The big question, do you think the Red Dragon 80w DC pump can handle ALL of this?

If not, do I need Two pumps? One of my return of Display Tank & Frag Tank and then one for my manifold?

I'm hoping to use only 1, lower power consumption DC pump, I really like the red dragon if it is an option.

Thank you !

Arman

 

[uncleof6]

Hello all. I am planning on plumbing my system in the coming week or so and I am trying to decide my return pump.

Here is some info on my system.

I have a 150g Display, then behind it is the fish room which holds the sump as well as a 60g frag tank. I have to plumb in a JBJ 1/3HP Chiller, as well as 2-3 Reactors for Carbon/GFO/Pellets, as well as I need 1 outlet to feed my CO2 Rx.

Here are some photos to help, this is the DT.



Here is the fish room / Sump, the frag tank will sit on the stand above the sump, as well was the CO2 Rx and the Chiller. The Media Reactors will sit in the sump in one of the chambers.



It's about 11' total horizontal run, and about 5' total of vertical run. I would have 2 3/4" returns on the frag tank, 1x 1" return on the display tank, and 5x 1/2" outlets for chiller and reactors.

Ideally I would want one return pump to run all this, I want an in sump pump. Price is not a big issue. I want it to be 1 pump, quiet, reliable, and low power consumption.

The big question, do you think the Red Dragon 80w DC pump can handle ALL of this?

If not, do I need Two pumps? One of my return of Display Tank & Frag Tank and then one for my manifold?

I'm hoping to use only 1, lower power consumption DC pump, I really like the red dragon if it is an option.

Thank you !

Arman

The return pump is the last item you should make a choice on, after everything else is at least put down on paper, and friction loss calculations (for total dynamic head) are done, so you know what size range pump you actually need, rather than the pump you want...

In terms of the pump you want, @ ~2100gph, it is a bit light for the things you are wanting to run.

:reading: Contextual DEFINITION: Horizontal&mdashparallel to the horizon (in this case, parallel to the floor; perpendicular to vertical, 90°; perpendicular to the force of gravity 90°...

As for the plumbing your drains should not be run horizontal, rather they need to be angled down; Angled down 45° or more, is best, however, down 1/4"/ft works.

:reading: Contextual DEFINITION: Horizontal"”lateral, side to side;

You can drain water horizontally, provided the pipes carrying the water are angled down, to prevent air locking (air getting trapped in the plumbing.)

:celeb3:

Ok, on to the rest...

At the flow rates you are looking at (by inference) you will need to use a siphon system, not durso or other open channel drain system.

The inlet on the Red Dragon pump is 2" and the outlet is 1.25". You want the main return to the tank to be 1.5", not 1", don't reduce the size of your main return, increase it to reduce friction losses. You can use smaller branches to run your adjunctive equipment and frag tank, however, the frag tank has needs very similar to the DT, so you may want to consider not pulling from the main return line to feed it, (unless you can afford an even larger pump.) The more you pull of the main return, the less your DT will get, (fairly obvious) and the less the pump will put out due to higher total dynamic head losses.

 

[ArmanS]

Uncle, thanks for the great response. I hope you don't mind how I responded, my responses are in red.

The return pump is the last item you should make a choice on, after everything else is at least put down on paper, and friction loss calculations (for total dynamic head) are done, so you know what size range pump you actually need, rather than the pump you want...

In terms of the pump you want, @ ~2100gph, it is a bit light for the things you are wanting to run.

I have determined everything else already. I want to feed my display tank, & frag tank and the other items that 100% would be connected would be my chiller, calcium reactor, and 2 media reactors. I have an additional reactor for GFO which I would add if needed.

:reading: Contextual DEFINITION: Horizontal&mdashparallel to the horizon (in this case, parallel to the floor; perpendicular to vertical, 90°; perpendicular to the force of gravity 90°...

As for the plumbing your drains should not be run horizontal, rather they need to be angled down; Angled down 45° or more, is best, however, down 1/4"/ft works.

:reading: Contextual DEFINITION: Horizontal"”lateral, side to side;

You can drain water horizontally, provided the pipes carrying the water are angled down, to prevent air locking (air getting trapped in the plumbing.)

:celeb3:

Great information. So, your mentioned that I should run my drain pipes angled down at a 45° or more angle. That is not an issue. The drains from the frag tank will be pretty much straight down and a 45° to enter the bulkheads that will be on the right hand side of the sump. For the display tank their are two returns, both I can angle down to reach the sump.


Ok, on to the rest...

At the flow rates you are looking at (by inference) you will need to use a siphon system, not durso or other open channel drain system.

The inlet on the Red Dragon pump is 2" and the outlet is 1.25". You want the main return to the tank to be 1.5", not 1", don't reduce the size of your main return, increase it to reduce friction losses. You can use smaller branches to run your adjunctive equipment and frag tank, however, the frag tank has needs very similar to the DT, so you may want to consider not pulling from the main return line to feed it, (unless you can afford an even larger pump.) The more you pull of the main return, the less your DT will get, (fairly obvious) and the less the pump will put out due to higher total dynamic head losses.

1.5" return to the tank will be fine as well, the frag tank will be 3/4" returns which are fine by what you said. How much turn over do you suggest? I don't mind a different return pump if needed. I also have the DC 12000 which provide more flow. Do you think one DC 12000 would be sufficient if the red dragon pump is not?

 

[uncleof6]

Uncle, thanks for the great response. I hope you don't mind how I responded, my responses are in red.




1.5" return to the tank will be fine as well, the frag tank will be 3/4" returns which are fine by what you said. How much turn over do you suggest? I don't mind a different return pump if needed. I also have the DC 12000 which provide more flow. Do you think one DC 12000 would be sufficient if the red dragon pump is not?

I would make the feed to the frag tank 1", (~600gph upper limit for pump feeding through 3/4" pipe without excessive friction losses) as well as the drains, and the flow (though there is no such thing as too much flow) ~10x the frag tank volume, same for the system overall (10x the system volume.) 10x is arbitrary. The line I draw in the sand as to how high you should go... more is certainly not a bad thing. Example 150 gallon main tank, 60 gallon frag tank, + whatever is in the sump ~ total 2100 gph, 1500 to dt, 600 to frag tank.... add for the sump volume eh approximate is good enough. Accounting for the total dynamic head loss, you do need more than the Red Dragon puts out @ 0 ft.

Main DT drains should be 1.5" pipe size; you could probably get away with 1" bulkheads.

Depending on how the numbers add up, you could get away with a DC10000II, but the DC12000 is certainly a good option, and a lot less $ than the red dragon (you pay alot for the branding by Royal Exclusiv, though they are good pumps.)

 

[ArmanS]

I would make the feed to the frag tank 1", (~600gph upper limit for pump feeding through 3/4" pipe without excessive friction losses) as well as the drains, and the flow (though there is no such thing as too much flow) ~10x the frag tank volume, same for the system overall (10x the system volume.) 10x is arbitrary. The line I draw in the sand as to how high you should go... more is certainly not a bad thing. Example 150 gallon main tank, 60 gallon frag tank, + whatever is in the sump ~ total 2100 gph, 1500 to dt, 600 to frag tank.... add for the sump volume eh approximate is good enough. Accounting for the total dynamic head loss, you do need more than the Red Dragon puts out @ 0 ft.

Main DT drains should be 1.5", although 1.25" would be acceptable.

Depending on how the numbers add up, you could get away with a DC10000II, but the DC12000 is certainly a good option, and a lot less $ than the red dragon (you pay alot for the branding by Royal Exclusiv, though they are good pumps.)

The drains for the frag tank are 1.5" and the display tank has a main drain that is 1.25" and a 1" emergency drain. Okay, so the red dragon is out of the picture. The DC 12000 is ~3200 gph, do you think one would be sufficient for the display tank, frag tank, and chiller, ca rx, and media reactors? It seems like it is almost enough. The reactors need very little flow as well as the chiller and ca rx. Those I was thinking putting 1/2" outlets to feed. The majority of the flow would go to the DT and FT.

Thank you.

 

[uncleof6]

The drains for the frag tank are 1.5" and the display tank has a main drain that is 1.25" and a 1" emergency drain. Okay, so the red dragon is out of the picture. The DC 12000 is ~3200 gph, do you think one would be sufficient for the display tank, frag tank, and chiller, ca rx, and media reactors? It seems like it is almost enough. The reactors need very little flow as well as the chiller and ca rx. Those I was thinking putting 1/2" outlets to feed. The majority of the flow would go to the DT and FT.

Thank you.

I was still editing when you posted...

When running a siphon system, you need the emergency to have a higher capacity than the siphon. So it depends on the bulkhead sizes. But both should be the same size, or the DRY emergency the larger of the two...with two 1" bulkheads for instance, you want 1.5" pipe on both.

What is the recommended flow rate for the chiller? Often the required flow rate is measured in hundreds of gph. See the chiller literature; this has to do with duty cycle which should be around 50% IIRC, not necessarily efficiency) Add that to the total figure and add that to the pump requirements. Just guessing, the DC12000 is the pump to use.

 

[ArmanS]

The Chiller's flow rate says 480-2400 GPH.

So it sounds like 1 DC 12000 would be able to handle everything on its own.

Do you think it would be beneficial to plumb two pumps? 1 DC 12000 for the Return of the Frag tank and Display tank and then a separate DC 12000 with a manifold for the chiller and reactors? I have two pumps but I just thought it would be easier to turn it all off of one.

 

[uncleof6]

The Chiller's flow rate says 480-2400 GPH.

So it sounds like 1 DC 12000 would be able to handle everything on its own.

Do you think it would be beneficial to plumb two pumps? 1 DC 12000 for the Return of the Frag tank and Display tank and then a separate DC 12000 with a manifold for the chiller and reactors? I have two pumps but I just thought it would be easier to turn it all off of one.

Again, figure out what the numbers say. You do need to figure out your total dynamic head. Becasue that will reduce the pumps output. This is based on pipe inside diameter, the lengths of pipe, the number and types of fittings (a friction loss chart will help) as well as the vertical lift. It all adds together to vertical lift, which can be applied to the flow curve of the pump.

It would be easier to run it all from one pump, but only the numbers can tell you, if you cannot. I am just guessing at this point. (best guess.) Personally, running a second DC12000 would be a bit of a waste, of both pumps. If you did happen to run out of room with a single DC12000, I would be inclined to use a smaller (of the DC series) dedicated to the chiller only. I run pumps that way by default. Save the second DC12000 for another mid-size tank.

 

[ArmanS]

Perfect. Thank you very much, you have answered all of my questions for now!

I will do exactly as you said, 1 DC 12000 and if needed add smaller pump dedicated to my chiller.

Thanks again!