I am considering that too, for sure. But if I were to do the two 1.5" drains and a 2650 GPH Red Dragon pump -- while not being the ideal, Bean Animal kick-*** system -- would that be likely to work much better than my original plan and be an adequate system?
Not really, because the drains will not be capable of handling the flow rate. If you want to hit the higher flow rates, you will need to convert to a siphon system.
If you are speaking of a two pipe siphon system, then the overflow is most likely too small to handle the flow rate. For instance, if you wish to hit 3000gph, you need a
minimum of 45" linear length of overflow WITHOUT teeth. Teeth reduce the effective linear length by 1/2 - 2/3. This channels the water, (which increases noise,) raises the head height behind the weir, which causes more sub-surface water to flow out than surface water, which reduces the concentration of DOC fed to the skimmer, and the skimmer performance is based on the DOC concentration. (the surface water is where the organics are.) If you want to hit 1500gph, you need 23"
minimum effective length. In all cases, longer is going to be more efficient and quieter.
As RE was mentioning, manufacturers are 10, 20, even 30 in some cases. years outdated with their designs, notions, recommendations, what have you. If they were 30 - 50 years 'outdated,' they would be much closer to how things are being run today.
This is very typical of the problem:
"There is absolutely no reason to flow 3000 gph through a sump.
Based on what? This is an assumption based on 'single pass systems.'
What this high flow rate should be is in-tank circulation, not sump flow.
Based on what? Power heads were never intended to supplement the recirculative flow rate. Power heads were never intended to compliment the recirculative flow rate. Power heads were intended as adjunctive aids, for vertical mixing.
When systems moved away from under-gravel filters, to the open systems most are familiar with, there was a problem: water returning to the tank, never made it to the bottom of the tank. Well... it did eventually, but not fast enough to keep the dissolved oxygen levels up. Power heads were used to solve this problem, not turn 900gph into 12000gph.
Even if you did have all this coming through the sump, it would not provide the best in-tank water circulation since it would be a continuous never changing flow pattern. What this high flow rate should be is in-tank circulation provided by in-tank water movers (powerheads) designed for this.
Of course not, the return flow is not intended to provide vertical mixing. See above as to why. Again with the power heads... where did that come from? It is indeed mis-information, with just enough good information ahead of it, to make it believable.
Remember, a sump is not an active biological filter, it is a “box holding water” and the only real “active” thing it does is mechanically filter the water that flows through it, and chemically if chemicals are inserted into the water flow.
Mechanical filters don't have a place in marine systems either. They are a carry over from freshwater, and should have remained there, nothing but selling stuff that is not needed. What is of concern (dissolved organics) in marine systems cannot be removed by mechanical filtration.
The skimmer is in the sump, and that is what we are feeding, that is what deals with dissolved organics. Only to a certain extent, and rate of removal is based on the concentration of DOC. This also involves surface renewal/surface skimming efficiency.
I still don’t understand what people think a sump does, magically do something when 3000 gallons of water moves through it?
Well, this is rather circular....
Tell them, their real “filter” is the live rock in the aquarium, and this high water circulation needs to be in the aquarium, random circulation using in-tank pumps for this purpose.
Jeff"
What is it that so called live rock does magically? Nothing. In what way is 'live rock' a filter, that the sand, glass, inside of pipes, every single surface of the system as a whole, are not? No way.
Live rock has been in use since the 1960s, as far as it has been published. Live rock, when it was 'rediscovered' some time later, (mid 70s,) indeed performed a sort of magic. A good chunk of live rock could make a 'down' system habitable. It was not really magic, it was bio-diversity, and quite possibly denitrification. What made it live, was the life inside the rock, not just on the outside. Then, some years later, that live rock was legislated off the market. Leaving us with the junk that is mis-named 'live rock;' devoid of the diversity which made the rock 'live.' Even the cultured live rock, that is still available, does not come close to the natural live rock. The juju is gone.
Fiji and tonga rock are dead, nothing
usually remains other than bacteria, and some algae (coralline if you are lucky.) By today's definition of 'live rock' the rock in your back yard is live rock. The glass in your aquarium is live rock. The bulkhead fitting is live rock. Dead man made rock makes for some of the most stunning displays I have ever seen. Nothing live about man made rock either. (concrete, aragonite, and plastic shavings.)
So called 'live rock' is nothing more than large bio-balls that you can make an aquascape with, and glue corals too. After a period of time, the outside of the rock is covered with coralline, corals, and other lifeforms, as well as glycocalyx (bacterial secretions,) plugging up the pores, completely cutting off the interior of the rock from the surrounding water.
If 'live rock' were the true filter, we would still be using bio-balls and trickle filters, because that is all it will do. The rest: mis-informaton. Life Reef still sells trickle filters. Why? Because people will buy them.
The problem is not just the manufacturers, it lies with the hobbyists as well. They gobble up the marketing hype, and act accordingly. (it is the same with everything, not just aquarium stuff.) As long as the marking strategy works, there will be no changes, and custom stuff will continue to cost a premium over the stuff they normally produce. They are not inclined to change their ways, as long as they make a healthy profit, and are not inclined to deviate from the advice that sells their equipment. The bottom line is they want to sell you something, and continue to sell you stuff. Salesman...they will not improve their designs, unless they stop making money on what they are pushing at the hobbyists. The only thing that can be done is to educate the consumers...a tough battle... and the DIYers.. another tough battle.
Life Reef sumps will be noisy at high flow rates because they are too small, 13" front to back: bad design. Most of their designs are stuck in the technology boom period of the late 80's and 90's: cluttered, too busy, mechanical filtration, eye candy... stuff that was rejected in favor of older more effective methods, (old made new again,) but kept alive by marketing hype and mis-information. Nothing against Life Reef, they exist to make money, and what they produce is very high quality (I recommend their HOB overflows over any other.) But, just like every other manufacturer of aquarium equipment, they are stuck in their ways, and will stick with what is 'popular.'
Just an FYI, but I have been around longer than Life Reef, have designed, built, implemented, and marketed just about every piece of equipment used today, at one time or another, plus some that many have never heard of. I know how these things work, I know how they don't work. Thing is, I am not trying to sell equipment...
A note on skimmer design: Skimmers are varied, touted, marketed, and designed in many different ways. The bottom line is they are all the same, and put simply, one is no better than the other. There are no standards, no mathematical formula, or anything that can be considered a guideline or design criteria. It is all guess work, and marketing hype. Mostly the current designs are all 'me too' copies of one another. No advances, other than aesthetics, have been made in many many years. The oldest designs removed around 30% of the TOC, the newer designs remove around 30% of the TOC.. The sizing of skimmers is arbitrary. There are no formula, guidelines, or uniformity, for this either. Still, the best design is the old air driven counter-current skimmer, which removes around 30% of the TOC. The advantage is the air and water flow can be adjusted independently. The disadvantage is they need to be tall.
I made a skimmer out of a couple of plastic bottles, a number of years back. It kept a 20 gallon tank running for 12 months, fish and coral, before they were moved to larger tanks. The descendants of this original culture, are what populate my fish and coral propagation tanks (along with additions over the years.)
Talking to salesman at Lifereef is the same as talking to salesman at the LFS. Noise in the sump is a question of good or bad design.... You have a large tank, no longer in the hobby tank range; a different mindset and different equipment are required. If the sump he sold/is trying to sell you can't handle the flow, another sump design is in order. Lifereef maeks some nice stuff, but the only way to get a decent sump anywhere, is to build it yourself.
